Kinetico confusion
Hello all, My wife and I have lived in a new build home in CO for about 6 years and after a variety of hard water related problems I have started investigating water treatment options. From the research I have done, I believe that a Kinetico system would offer us the best value, warranty and longevity, but I'm not 100% sold on Kinetico. I also don't like that there is only one dealer in our territory. Another local water treatment specialist (not the Kinetico dealer) came by, and they actually sent their technician (40+ years in the business and every single industry certification from what I can tell).. really nice guy. He said that they would put in a high efficiency unit with a Clack valve for about $1695 and he recommended a pre-treatment carbon filter, he was not sure what the pre-filter would cost. He did test my water and the hardness is at 14 gpg and there are reasonably high levels of chloramines in our water. I had not considered an RO system, but as I have high blood pressure he thought it would be a pretty good idea. He had the idea of putting the RO system in the basement and then piping it up to both the kitchen faucet as well as to our refrigerator for the water/ice line. All in all I was very happy with how things were approached, but I still was interested in a Kinetico softener. The Kinetico sales person came out today, and I was a little concerned/overwhelmed by the sales pitch. He basically gave us three options to get a Kinetico system. Option 1 was a traditional electric system similar to what the 1st company offered, for about the same price. Option 2 was a Kinetico system that did not include a pre-filter for $2495 installed. For either of these options he said a carbon pre-filter would be about $995 installed, which to me seems pretty high. He also quoted $995 for an RO system installation, which also seemed high as there was apparently a $120 additional charge to cut our granite countertop. The option he was really excited about was the Kinetico Mach Series 4040s, he kind of went on a tear about this one and how amazing it is, and how the pre-filter is far better than a regular pre-filter, uses special activated granular carbon that's better than regular activated charcoal, etc, etc. This system is $3995. He also was pushing the Kinetico K5, but it looked like there were several options for it, and the price he was quoting was about $1595 installed, which again, seems quite high. So, I have a couple of questions for the experts here, if they are kind enough to donate their time to answer; 1. Is there something special about the 4040s that makes it superior to going with the lower end Kinetico with a regular carbon pre-filter? I have found it difficult to decipher Kinetico model # jargon on their website and this sales person did not provide a lot of information (he spent a lot of time instead telling us how much money we would save by using less soaps, etc). One thing he said that was extremely confusing is after telling us that the Kinetico twin tank would use less salt/water than other softeners, he went on to tell us that just for myself and my wife we could expect to use 2-3 bags of salt a MONTH?? The other installer selling the generic softener had told us that we would probably use only 3-4 bags a YEAR with a traditional high efficiency (non Kinetico) softener. 2. Is there something particular superior about the K5 that would justify the cost? One concern I have is that if I did splurge for an RO unit, I would want to also use it to fill several evaporative type humidifier units that we use in the winter time. This takes about 6-8 gallons an evening for about 4 months out of the year.... I am skeptical that the K5 can keep up with this type of demand, especially as I usually fill all of these units at the same time... Does anyone know? If I understand correctly, I could take a regular RO unit like the Watts units or Tap Master units and install a larger auxiliary holding tank that would meet this demand quite easily (put in a 10 gallon tank and stow it in the basement for example). Any other advice would be appreciated. I was pretty confident about what we needed to do, but now my head is spinning a bit. To further add to confusion, when I had called this dealer to schedule the appointment, they had said that they were offering a free RO with purchase of a Kinetico system. The sales person who came out insisted that it was not a free RO system, but a free pre-filter installation, which he then went on to disparage by saying that such a pre-filter was far inferior to the one built into the 4040S and that almost certainly we would get at least one free charcoal replacement on the 4040S with the 10 year warranty (which doesn't make sense to me, the 4040S is $1500 more than the lower end twin tank Kinetico unit so if we got a free pre-filter it would take a heck of a lot of replacement charcoal to equal $1500). Anyhow, sorry for the long post, hope someone can help, thanks! Just to add an aside, I am usually pretty good about small to medium sized DIY but after investigating I decided I needed to hire a professional for the softener installation, however, one option I suppose it to have the installer put the system in and pre-plumb it for me to put in a pre-filter myself, I would imagine I could do it for less than $995 depending on how difficult it is. I could possibly install the RO system myself too, if it was similarly pre-plumbed for me by the softener install people. Hi. Run away from kinetico is my opinion. You can get better results buying units online for far less money and available parts if a issue arises. With proprietary products you become a slave to use thier parts and service. There are good water guys on this site that will offer thier advice. As far as your question #2 I can only say from my experiance this is one of the best RO's out there. See link. Uses any 4 filter for replacement and uses dow membrane. Customer service is top notch. I have one. Reverse Osmosis Product Page - Premium RO Drinking Water Filters Systems, Portable Purifiers, Filtration Parts | APEC Water I have the RO 90 with a 14 gal tank upgrade. Uses carbon block x 2. 5 micron sediment, dow membrane, polishing GAC final filter...etc They give you a TDS meter, icemaker kit, 2nd yr replacement filters free. If you dont want to use thier replacement filters you can use any standard 4 filters. IMO you cant beat it. The watts and similar styles with integrated cartridges you are subject to buying thier replacement cartridges only. So thats what I have on RO. If theres something better out there I would like to know because I have not found it. Next for RO to work better a softner is recommended. As far as softners I myself have a sears unit. Most if not all the gents on here dont like them. I am on a well and mine is going on 9 yrs. I will let the others recommend a softner for you. Also its my strong opinion that any and all homes on chlornated water should have a whole house carbon filter for chloring removal. Not just to protect the softner but the effects from chlorine are bad. Read this. The Negative Health Effects of Chlorine - Joseph G. Hattersley On a side not read about the Gerson diet. May help your blood pressure. Just my opinion. Im a juice guru and believe in organic diet. It really does wonders. Mike NJ I agree with Mike..Run away from Kinetico. I worked for them many years ago. They are good valves but require you to use a local dealer for repairs. Some have gone as far as not selling repair part to their own customers forcing the to spend more money on repair. Have you looked at the Triple Treat System? It's a softener and carbon (seporate) but has onlt one valve. I can not post a pic here but will gladly send you one. Just e-mail me at affordablewtr@aol.com. If you want to tackle the install, I've done it for over 20 years and can help. Hi guys, thanks for the advice. I think that the idea of buying parts online and putting it together yourself is a great option for someone who is a more skilled DIYer than myself. For me, I am looking at the lowest maintenance, highest reliability solution that is available. The Kinetico system, AFAIK is warrantied for 10 years and requires minimal maintenance. It does not require electronic components like timers. The biggest question is whether the $2499 Kinetico is worth $700 more than a roll your own softener solution from another highly regarded local dealer.... and then, having that question answered, I obviously have other questions such as what is fair cost of a whole home pre-filter installation, etc. Regardless of which way I go, it's likely that I will only do the minor maintenance on the system and will go through a local company for any real repair issues that crop up. I'm not aware of Kinetico preventing other dealers from servicing their units. In fact, I talked to two non Kinetico dealers who both said that their technicians have serviced the units in the past. I believe it would be illegal for the manufacturer to refuse to sell parts to someone other than their local authorized dealer. That sounds like an extremely unusual situation to me. You might as well go with the 4060 with overdive if you are going to spend that insane amount of money. With the carbon you need to change the carbon every couple of yrs. So that will be the maintainance, and to change the pre filter. http://deanzawater.com/pdf/Mach4040OwnersManual.pdf Again not liking the K5 RO. You are forced to buy thier filters. Its only a three stage I believe but you can add two post filters from what I read. The unit I linked ( Apec) has three pre filters before the membrane and is a true 5 stage system. Hey good luck in what you decide. Hopefully the water guys on here will steer you clear of kinetic. Mike NJ I guess you didn't understand me. I have serviced Kinetico unit myself. I just can not get parts. I have had owners go to a local Kinetico dealer to buy the parts and they refused to sell them. There are many posters on this site and others trying to find parts because of the high cost the local dealers charge. They sell the level 1 for $400.00+. You can buy a brand new complete softener for under $500.00. It's up to you. For can buy online and find someone to install it saving thousands or buy the Kinetico for way too much. You said: For me, I am looking at the lowest maintenance, highest reliability solution that is available. In my opinion a Softener with a Fleck control head meets your criteria and is much less costly. What leads you to believe that a Kinetico system has any less maintenance or better reliability than a unit with a Fleck or Clack control head? You also said: The Kinetico system, AFAIK is warrantied for 10 years and requires minimal maintenance. It does not require electronic components like timers. You can buy two or three complete softeners for the extra cost of the Kinetico system so I don't see the 10 year warranty as that big a deal--particularly when you realize that Fleck control heads are warrantied for 5 years and tanks are warrantied for 10 years. As to the lack of electronic components--it is true that the Kinetico system is unique in that respect but I'm not personally convinced it is an advantage. If you check online posts from frustrated Kinetico owners (I am not a Kinetico owner) you will see that the relatively complex mechanical parts used to avoid electronic components have there own problems and repair and maintenance issues. Hi guys. From my own research the Kinetico seemed to be lower maintenance, more efficient (less salt, water usage as well as zero electric usage) and have a longer warranty (10 years on everything). While I enjoy DIY projects, the softener would be installed by a professional, but yes, I might be doing some maintenance on it myself over time. I have seen many Kinetico owners report that they routinely get 12-15 years trouble free out of their gear and then, at most, need a refresh of resin, etc. The lack of need for a refresh via timer and twin tanks seemed a plus as once or twice a year we can have as many as six guests in our home and our water usage skyrockets. In any event, I'm not 100% sold on Kinetico, I have a bid in with a very reputable local dealer on a traditional softener, which would be put in with a Clack or Fleck control unit. However, based on prices I am seeing in the area, it is in fact not a possibility to replace the unit several times before reaching the price of the Kinetico. From what I can see, getting a traditional high efficiency softener as well as a carbon pre filter is going to cost me about $2499+ from any of the reputable dealers. Again, this is just a bit too big of a project for me to DIY, so I'm going to have to go through a professional. Certainly, the inability of end users to get parts directly from the manufacturer is a major source of concern and could prevent me from going with that dealers products especially as I can normally undertake minor repairs myself. I will contact this particular dealer (who has a stellar BBB rating) and portray myself as someone needing parts and see what they say. While I understand the concern of not getting parts, I guess I will have to see that for myself, as I have never encountered a manufacturer who behaves that way. Maybe it has more to do with the approach of the local partner. I do agree that Kinetico setting pricing and only having one dealer per territory is discouraging, but I am not convinced that they don't, even withstanding that, have the highest efficiency lowest maintenance system available. If installation is what you are concerned about--and it seems to be based on your comment that you might be doing some maintenance--you might consider purchasing a Fleck control head twin tank unit for less than $1000 complete and delivered to your home and then hiring a plumber to make the plumbing install/hookup. Reports on internet boards suggest that the plumbing install is typically less than $500 but you would need to determine the specifics for your area and specific install circumstances. If you go with a single resin tank system the delivered cost of the compete softener will be closer to $500. That still leaves you with the responsibility of determining the size of the unit you need and properly programming the unit once the physical install is accomplished. Posters on this board can help you with both of those tasks. Here is a link to one online seller that has good prices (I have no connection with this seller and there are others with comparable prices). Ohio Pure Water Company - Fleck 9100SXT 3|4 Electronic Meter Twin Tank Water Softeners Just some technical details on the 4040. His salt estimates were way off. Two of you with typical water use should consume about 9 pounds of salt per month. That is about 2-3 bags per year. The quoted price is comparable to those in this area. The K5 produces up to 40 gallons per day or around 2 gallons per hour. That is much more than most typical residential ROs. You should have no problem using it for the humidifier. It uses your household water pressure to drive product water not an air bladder. This gives high, consistent pressure to faucets and fridges. Your price is lower than those in my area. Some dealers hesitate or even refuse to let you have replacement parts but most have no trouble with that. If you want info on the softener, email me. Thanks andy for the info on salt usage. Would that value hold true with water hardness 12-14? Thanks again. Bob, Thanks for the link, I will investigate the options from the retailer in question and consider the option of installation through a local plumber. Based on your water hardness and my understanding that your household has 2 people I recommend a 1 cubic foot unit unless you have unusual high usage for something like a multihead shower or large tub. If you are looking at twin unit look at one with 1 cubic foot of resin in each tank. Hi Bob, it is just me and my wife at the moment, however we are starting a family soon and I don't plan on having to upgrade/replace the system in 5-10 years because our needs have grown. In addition we have family who visit with us typically a couple of times a year... so periodically we have as many as 8 people in the house at one time, all showering, etc. A 1 cubic foot unit should be fine. During times you have visitors the unit will regenerate more frequently. If your family grows there is the capacity for that as well. The key is that a 1 cubic foot unit will work well at flow rates up to 9 gallons per minute--that is why I put the caveat about multiple head showers/large tubs. I based that on on that hardness with two people at 50gpd per person. Thanks Andy for the information. I've never REALLY understood the importance of adding a pre-carbon in front of a water softener unless the chlorine levels are THAT HIGH or an allergy!?!?!? I hear companies say that it will extend the life of resins(which it will do) but resins can be replaced for $100+ and maintaining a pre-carbon is usually WAAAAAAAY more than that. Can someone explain this to me? I've only been doing this 16 years so some new insight might help me out. Can someone explain this to me? Read this. 16 yrs and you have not read about the effects of chlorine? The Negative Health Effects of Chlorine - Joseph G. Hattersley Forget about saving the softner, save yourself. I can only say I have been on wells all my life and I am shocked when I smell and taste water from the tap at freinds homes. And if it smells like chlorine, That usually means theres not enough chlorine in there. Like a swimming pool when it smells you need to shock it. Mike NJ I want to thank everyone for all of the info so far. The local dealer came back today with their estimate. From what I can tell, it involves a single tank Hellenbrand E3 softener that makes use of the Clack valve. Also included is a 1 cubic foot carbon filter installation as well as a (from what I can see) Watts WP50 5 stage RO system that would be plumbed in from our basement to our kitchen island sink as well as our refrigerator. The quote also includes installation of an additional 10 gallon reserve tank for the RO so that we have a little more available than the standard 3 gallon reservoir. Total cost including installation for all of the above was about $2700. One concern is that none of the quotes so far include bypass of any faucets, such as outside faucets that we might want to use to do auxiliary watering (our primary watering is via a sprinkler system which is on the water line before the location the softener would get installed to). I think the only question is whether the E3 softener is sized appropriately considering that we have a dual shower head setup in our master bath and will be growing the size of our household over time. So, I do have a question... does anyone have any experience with using softened water in an evaporative style humidifier? We have four of the Venta cleaner/humidifiers spread out around the house (I wish we could get a central humidifier on our furnace but from what I understand we have too many cubic feet and would need a 220V commercial unit) and I would prefer to just use softened water in them vs. having to use the RO water, I just don't know if any resulting deposits would be easy to clean off (anything would have to be easier than cleaning off the hard water deposits). Local installer called (such a nice guy) and said that the unit that was quoted is a 32K grain unit. He says that with water hardness of 14, even if we used 400 gallons a day softened, we would only be recharging once every 8 days. He said the inlet/outlet pipes are both a full 1 so he doesn't see any flow problems with the proposed setup. There are mulitple factors relating to flow--and I will mention just a couple. The size of the pipes and the control head relate to pressure drop as flow increases. The size of the resin tank is related to the flow that will be effectively softened. A 1 cubic foot unit (32K grains nominal) will reliably soften a flow of 9 gallons per minute. Above that rate and hardness leakage will increase. An occasional flow of 10 or 11 gpm is unlikely to be noticed except in the shower but if the flows are regularly above 9 gpm then you should install a larger unit. You mention dual shower heads--it all depends on the flow. Most new shower heads (but not all) are 2.5 gpm or less. If your dual show heads are 2.5 gallons/minute or less each you will probably be just fine with a 1 cubic foot softener--that would leave 4 gpm or more for other uses while the dual head show is in use. You also need to keep in mind that unless you have a large water heater with commercial recovery characteristics the hot water won't last long at high flow rates. My point is the system characteristics need to be balanced. Outside faucets, with the possible exception of one for car washing, need to be plumbed with unsoftened water and you definitely need to plan and budget for that. Softened water will work much better in a humidifier--the deposits will be much easier to remove. But I would seriously consider feeding the humidifiers with RO water because there would be very little residue and, as a result, maintenance. Thanks Bob, that's all really good information. The upstairs shower heads are the newer restricted units, but I have removed the flow restrictors. I still don't expect we are pulling more than 5-6 gpm out of it, so that's probably not much of a concern unless we put some kind of super high end shower in down the road with multiple jets. I have contemplated having the outside faucets bypassed, but for just occasional watering and a hardness of 14 gpg, I'm not sure that it is that big of a deal if we don't bypass the outside faucets. Obviously there will be some kind of additional cost, so I don't want to do it if it isn't going to be especially beneficial. I understand that softened water is actually quite good for washing cars, etc, too. Unless you are going to use potassium chloride to regenerate your softener you definitely don't want to water plants or grass with softened water--the added sodium will gradually build up in the soil over time and adversely affect the plants. Additionally, the added load on the softener will just increase your salt usage and waste going to drain during regeneration. And with potassium chloride costing several times what sodium chloride does regeneration with potassium chloride makes watering the plants pretty expensive. Bob, We actually have a sprinkler system that would be used for primary watering of the lawn and plants. Someone pointed out to me that it's not very inconvenient to bypass the softener if we're going to go out and water everything, which is the kind of thing we might do a couple of times a month in the summer when it is particular hot outside. I will investigate the cost though of bypassing the outside faucets. Does anyone know if the flow rate of the Watts RO (.6gpm I think?) can be increased through the use of a booster pump or delivery pump? Any pumps that work? Does anyone know if the flow rate of the Watts RO (.6gpm I think?) can be increased through the use of a booster pump or delivery pump? Any pumps that work To change the flow rate you need a new membrane with that rate and a new checkvalve with the new rate. Not sure is watts offers that. The system I have from here you can get whatever yo want. Reverse Osmosis Product Page - Premium RO Drinking Water Filters Systems, Portable Purifiers, Filtration Parts | APEC Water Mike NJ A booster pump will change the rate at which the water is produced. The pump would be installed prior to the RO and increase the incoming pressure. The make a permeante pump the does not use electricity yet it increases the amount of water in the storage tank. It works on hydralic pressure from the RO drain line. I thought the OP might be talking about the GPD it produces. To get more pressure out the faucet end I believe you can increase the PSI in the storage tank. But then that reduces the amount it can hold. Mike NJ Yes, I'm not so worried about increasing production, I'm more concerned with boosting product delivery to the RO faucet, so that when I fill large pitchers, spaghetti pots, etc, with RO water it doesn't take 5 minutes to do so. The dealer proposed system will have a 10 gallon reserve tank, and honestly I only need about 1/2 of that in reality to be available for our use. I see a lot of pumps that talk about increasing RO production, whether they are traditional pumps, permeate pumps, etc, but I am not seeing any pumps that simply increase the product delivery speed. The nominal size of an RO tank is NOT the amount of water they hold. The nominal size includes the air in the tank to provide the pressure. A nominal 10 gallon tank holds about 6 gallons of water at 40 psi. See here: Amtrol RO-10 RO Water Storage Tank 10 Gal Steel 143132 - FreshWaterSystems.com Thanks Bob, I was aware that there was air displacement in the tank, with its bladder, that provided the pressure for the tank to operate. Does this mean that the larger the tank the greater the delivery pressure? Perhaps I can simply go with a larger tank and further increase the pressure. Most RO's work off of line pressure. If the incoming pressure is 60 lbs, than the tank pressure will be about the same. If the pressure is increased in the tank, it will not only hold more water, but the rate of flow exiting the tank will be greater. When they talk about a tank capacity, let's say 5 gallon, that is the volume of air and water. In other words, you can not get 5 gallons of water from a 5 gallon RO tank. You will only get about 1/2 of it because of the air pressure inside that you must overcome. By adding a booster pump, you increase the volume of water in the tank which inturn increases the pressure. With the increased pressure, the flow will increase. ah, okay, it's starting to make more sense now. So a booster pump will BOTH increase production rate, increase line pressure. Maybe I should just order one. No. The RO tanks are pre charged to 5 psi. If you want it to come out at the faucet faster increase the psi in the tank. But you sacrifice the volume you can hold. A pump will do minimal.The pumps are for if your house psi is too low to produce ro water. Some wells are only 20 psi and ro needs at least 40 psi min. This is where you would need a pump. Mike NJ Okay, biermech had said that if you increase the pressure in the tank you not only increase the amount of water it can hold but also increase the speed of delivery. Perhaps I misunderstood. So, if a pump is not used, how is the pressure in the tank increased? I imagine that they are pressurized ahead of time in most cases when they leave the factory. Mike, you say that increasing the air pressure in the tank will cause the water to exit faster correct? Starting with 5 psi air pressure, as water enters, the pressure increases. Once the tank pressure hits feed pressure, the auto shut off turns the feed water off. So if the feed pressure is 60 lb, than the tank pressure is 60 lb. There will be X gallons in the tank. Now the booster pump increases the amount of water in the tank which in turn does what? Increases the air pressure in the tank. Increasing tank pressure means faster flows. Whether is air pressure or water pressure. It doesn't matter. Biermech I disagree. The OP probably has low pressure because he has no air in the tank or the post filter is clogged. http://www.purewater4u.com/store/rotroubleshooting.shtml Adding a pump will do nil except produce RO water for low pressure systems. RO works best at atleast 50 psi. If your well or city water is lower then that then a pump will make the unit work better. Ay 60 psi house pressure there is only about 25 psi on the tanks air bladder. The tank should be set to 5 psi. This is adjusted when the tank is empty. If you still dont have good pressure, check the post filter. If that dont work add 8-10 psi in the tank. You should not go above 10psi. Your ro volume will be reduced, but you will have better pressure at the RO faucet. Mike NJ OP doesn't have low pressure because OP does not yet have a system installed. OP wants to get a better rate of flow than the .6 GPM that Watts advertises as being typical for this system.
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