Estate (Whirlpool?) dryer timer bad?
Hello, This is my first post here and I'm on a mission from God (Thank you, Blues Brothers) trying to get some info for my son. Any help you might be able to provide me and him would be greatly appreciated. My son has an Estate (Whirlpool off-brand?) electric dryer. It will not start. He fortunately had a wiring diagram for the dryer. An electrician friend of mine (who admittedly doesn't know squat about dryers) and I traced through all of the fuses and thermostats (we think) and they all showed continuity. (Without removing the drum, we had no actual access to the electric motor (or any fuses/relays that might be underneath the dryer and immediately adjacent to the electric motor). We also tested the door switch and the Push to Start switch-and both were good and properly functioning. We finally decided that the most probable suspect was the dryer timer. Neither my electrician friend or I fully understood the dryer schematic or test the timer by using any ohm meter settings for any of the many timer wires. What we finally did was, with the dryer timer set on one of its three on cycle positions, we took a short piece of insulated wire and jumped between the two colored wires that the wiring diagram showed as going to the electric motor (i.e., a brown and a white wire as I recall). The dryer instantly turned on and ran until we removed the jumper wire. When we removed the dryer timer (to go get a replacement), there was a very slight rattle inside the dryer timer housing-suggesting to a that a contact point had fallen off or a spring had come loose or..??? For both of these reasons, we believe that the dryer timer is the culprit. Question: Was the jumpering the two wires a valid test to determine if the timer was defective, or not? By jumping the two leads going to the motor, are we bypassing any fuse(s) or relays? In other words, would the electric motor still start when jumpered if a fuse or relay in the circuitry had blown? The dryer timer part number is FSP 3979617. This dryer timer is VERY expensive and I'd hate to have my son by such an expensive part if the part was not the culprit. Your thought on this would be greatly appreciated. Thank you for your time and your input. There is at least one way to find out: Hook jumper back up, run it, then disconnect stat. Each one, if that is what it will take to make you feel better. If it continues to run, with the jumper, even though stats disconnected, then the jumper bypassed the stats. So then you would have to be absolutely certain each stat and switch is closed the way they should be, before concluding it has to be the timer. But if it stops, when disconnecting stats and opening the door - then you could conclude the timer is at fault, since your fear is that you may be bypassing the stats or some other switch. You wouldn't be, if the dryer stops. The rattling does indeed make it sound like it is the timer. You may also be able to carefully open the tmer to see if some points look toasted. Another way of testing could be to find out if the stats are on a different leg than the terminal of the timer you jumpered from. If you test between the stat wire and the timer terminal and have 0 volts, you are on the same leg. If 240, you are on a different leg. IF you are on a diffeent leg, this would definitely conclude a faulty stat could not affect the timer/motor, or vice-versa. Post model # I would guess the thermo fuse is bad. Rattling timer may have contact burnt off. Don't find many bad timers. Thanks for the responses, ecman51 and pugs! They are very much appreciated. pugs!, to answer your question, the model is an Estate Super Capacity Plus dryer, MOD: TEDS840PQ0 and the dryer label also states: 120v type: DWSRELE2406028FM54. Also, would the dryer run if no fuse is blown but the timer has a bad contact (i.e., the rattling around noise)? BTW, the rattling around noise is very small and faint. Sounds almost like a very tiny piece of metal (or plastic?). A fallen-off contact points sounds (no pun intended) like that might be what is making the small rattling noise. Also, where might the relevant thermo fuse be? The wiring diagram listed about 5-6 fuse-like devices and/or switches. I think that my electrician friend tested all the things that looked like a fuse or a switch. ecman51, what is a stat? I'm not familiar with that term. Also, instead of hooking back up the timer and all its many leads and then start removing them while the dryer is live and running, could I accomplish the same as you suggest (ie., by disconnecting these wires one at a time) by only hooking up the two thicker wires that we did jump and seeing if the dryer will start and run (after we push the push to start switch)? (I apparently am not allowed to post attachments otherwise I'd post a picture of the wiring schematic and/or the dryer switch.) Thanks again for all the help. It is really very much appreciated by me and my son and his family. Best, Mike Originally Posted by Mike Sturgeon The wiring diagram listed about 5-6 fuse-like devices and/or switches. I think that my electrician friend tested all the things that looked like a fuse or a switch. Then he probaby tested it. ecman51, what is a stat? I'm not familiar with that term. Thermostat. Also, instead of hooking back up the timer and all its many leads and then start removing them while the dryer is live and running, could I accomplish the same as you suggest (ie., by disconnecting these wires one at a time) by only hooking up the two thicker wires that we did jump and seeing if the dryer will start and run (after we push the push to start switch)? See if the jumpered timer, that you say runs the motor with the jumper attached, still runs the motor if you disconnect stat wires, one at a time. Do every unhook or hook-up procedure, with dryer unplugged in case one leg is live. THEN plug it in to see if it works when you hit the start button. Thanks for the additional info, ecman51. I'll try out your suggestion tomorrow--when my son is available to help out. As I understand what you are instructing me to do: 1. With the dryer unplugged, I'll hook up the timer and reattach all the wires and plug the dry back in. Then, using the jumper we made, I'll make contact between the two main wires on the timer (the two thick ones). Then, with contact being made between the two power wires, I'll push the start button to see if the dryer will turn on. 2. I'll then unplug the dryer, pull off one more wire plug back in the dryer and touch each of the two live (power lines?) with the jumper and then hit the start button again. 3. Repeat the process until only the two jumpered lines are left. (I'll disconnect the dryer each time I pull one of the wires off of the timer, re-plug in the dryer and hit the start button.) Now, assuming that the dryer continues running after all lines have been removed except for the two jumpered lines, what is that telling me? That the timer is good? Or, that the timer is bad? Also, assuming that the rattle inside the timer is, in fact, one of the contact points, could that mean that only one of the three wash settings (on the timer) is bad and the others are good? (I guess I can figure out this last question myself merely by trying all three of the settings with the timer being jumpered.) Thanks again for all your help. It is greatly appreciated. In these tough economic times, it is nice to be able to save someone a little money if the problem can be fixed by a bumbler like me. (grin) Best regards, Mike P.S. With the dryer plugged in, when I make contact with both power wires (with the jumper wire), there is a sparking and one of the contact ends of the jumper wire has gotten blackened. Should I be touching both leads with the jumper and then plug in the dryer? Would that process avoid the arcing and the sparking? You Have a Whrilpool type dryer with a top lint chute, Take off back, left side lint chute there is a white thermo fuse there, Check continuity there 1st ( 95%) of trouble there if dose not run. If open replace then clean out the vent to te outside. Most dryer problems start there. First make absolutely sure that you have testd that thermo fuse, per Pugsl. No use going thru all this. It would seem like if your electrician friend tested the number of stats you say, that he may have checked it. But we have to be sure. Hi, Pugs! and ecman51. Well, I think that it is the timer. Per your collective suggestions, here is what I did: 1. I reattached the timer, plugged in the jumper between the two thin wires (one tan and one white) that were connected on one side of the back of the timer. Since the dryer would never start without the timer being jumper as described, the jumper connection was left connected. Note, on this side of the timer, these were the only wires that were connected to this side of the timer. On the other side of the timer there were a number of wires, the two thick (110V power connections?) and a bunch of thinner wires that ran from the start switch, the dryer heat selector switch and then down to the various connections I am about to describe. 2. As I understood the layout on the back of the dryer, there are basically four connections (thermal fuses or otherwise). Two are directly linked into the exhaust chute and two are directly linked into the heater element chute. The exhaust air chute tests: 3. The two devices that are located at and integral to the exhaust are: 3A. A long thin white white plastic item with two thin(ner) blue wires connected thereto. (I think that this is the white thermo fuse that Pugs! is referring to.) I removed this device from the dryer (held on by one screw) and looked at it. It looked fine (i.e., no visible signs of damage or heat fuse blowing). Using the RX scale on both leads, I had good continuity. When I disconnected the two blue wires to this device, and then plugged in the dryer and pushed the start button and turned the timer on in any (and all) of the three on settings, the dryer would not turn on. 3B. I reconnected the two wires described in 3A and then I went to work on the other device integrated into the exhaust chute (Another thermal fuse or thermal cut-off?). This device had four wires connected to it (two thin purple wires and two red power wires. (It looks like somehow the two red power wires are somehow integrated into the heater element of the dryer.) If I disconnected the two thin purple wires, the dryer would run AND I still got hot air out of the vent!! What the heck is the purpose of these two purple wires? What is this purple wire connection doing or protecting? If I disconnected the two red power wires, the dryer would run but I would only get cold air. The heater chute tests: 4A. On the heater element side of the dryer, there is a conglomerate type of device connected at the bottom of the heat chute device. It is obvious that this somehow provides power to the dryer heating element because, reaching up, I could feel the un-insulated dryer heater element. There are three wires connected to this device--two thick power wires and a thin wire. I'm not certain what good the thin wire did because, if it was disconnected (and the two thick power wires were connected, the dryer ran and heater worked. If either of the thick power wires was disconnected, the dryer ran but there was no heat-just cold air coming out of the exhaust chute. 4B. Up at the top of the heat chute, there is a small round two-wire connection held onto the chute by one sheet metal screw. Removing this device from the heat chute, showed a small enclosed device. The two wires going to this device are thick red power wires. I'm assuming that this a thermal switch of some kind because, if I disconnected these two power wires and turned on the dryer, the dryer would run but would only put out cold air. Well, that is the limit of what I could try and troubleshoot. If there are any other thermal fuses or cut-off switches on the underside of the dryer next to the motor or hidden away someplace else, I cannot see them nor get to them. (Unless I remove the dryer drum and belt assembly?) Based upon what I have tested and done--particularly the test and results in 3A, above (and also remembering the slight rattle inside the timer itself), would you reasonably conclude that the timer switch is defective? Thanks for your continued help. I think that I am about ready to bite the bullet and order the timer. Best, Mike You put in a lot of effort with that post. I read every word. But the bottom line is you have to be sure on the thermal fuse. You can't be guessing that you THINK you spotted and tested all the stat looking things. The wiring diagram should actually say thermal fuse on it, I do believe. Look carefully at the diagram to identify every switch-stat-fuse type device that show on the diagram that at least 2 wires are connected to it. By identify, I mean count the number of these, so you know whether or not you found and tested enough of them. The 4 wire thermostat located under thermo fuse is what controls the amount of heat in dryer, Thin wires run a small heater in thermostat that heats a bi medal spring to control temp. only seen one those bad in years. All the rest of thermostats and thermo fuse must have continuity. reread your first post Thermostats will not have anything about running. You have wiring diagram take a peice of paper and cover everything that dose not have to do with running (motor circuit) I think you are looking at to many things. Hi again, Pugs! and Ecman51. You two guys have been way more than patient with me and I am hoping that that this neophyte has not tried your patience waaay beyond the limits of helpfulness and politeness. Well, regarding your last set of recommendations, I did the best I could and I checked every wire terminal I could find on the back side of the dryer. I could not figure out if I got every fuse/stat/switch that might be on the dryer (i.e. any that might be hidden from easy access and/or view. But, in addition to checking all of those exposed (i.e., easily seen devices), I disconnected the wire leads to such device(s) and then tested that device and I always got continuity. But, I'm in a quandary because what I am about to describe seems totally impossible and illogical. If you guys cannot explain this below-described situation, I'm going to have to concede defeat and either call in a dryer repairman or buy a new timer on the hope that the problem is, in fact, a defective timer. After performing all of the aforesaid continuity tests, the Starting Given Situation for the following tests is as follows: Looking at the backside of the timer (where all the wires are properly connected): On the left side of the timer, there are a bunch of wires going to 4-5 terminal posts. These wires are many different colors (thick red, thick black, and thin blues violets, etc.) On the other side (i.e., the right side) of the timer is a milky-white female three connection cap that has two thin wires and a blank. These two thin wires are a tan and a white wire and each of these two wires connects to an separate external male timer post coming our of the back of the timer. (The blank covers a third exposed male external post on the timer but makes no connection thereto.) Dealing just with the dryer timer, and with the dryer always unplugged from the wall, I performed the following tests/procedures: The Tests 1. With all dryer wires (including the wires connected to the backside of the timer) properly connected, I stuck the two leads from the meter into the backside of the milky-white cap (where the tan and the white wire were connected to their respective external male timer switch posts). Result: Continuity. 2. I pulled the milky-white cap off of the timer (thereby exposing the two external male posts) and then tested these two external male timer posts (to which the tan and the white wires had been connected thereto by virtue of the milky white cap). Result: No continuity to these two male posts through any of the three timer settings. (That is, with the meter hooked up to these two posts, no continuity registered at all when I turned on the dry switch and rotated it completely 360 degrees through all of its cycles. (Query: Would this result be because the Push to Start switch had not been pushed in (or been in the on position) prior to conducting this test?) Together, the results of these two tests would indicate to me that internally, the timer is not making contact between the posts to which the tan and the white wire are connected. (And that rattling around sound might be the contact point inside the timer. Hence, a bad timer. But, and here's the kicker that I don't understand at all: 3. At the start of these tests, with all dryer wires and timer wires connected, I was getting continuity between the tanand the white wires that were each connected to its respective external male timer post yet the dryer would not turn on. 4. However, if, with all timer wires and all other dryer wires connected, I jumpered (with a short 3 piece of 12 gauge wire) between the tan and the white wire (that were already showing continuity per test 1, above), then the dryer would turn on and each of its three timer settings would work!! How can jumpering between two wires that were already confirming continuity now cause the dryer to turn on? I cannot see how I completed a circuit since I already had continuity between the two wires that I subsequently jumpered across. I just cannot understand why situation 3 would not start the dryer but the additional jumpered piece of wire used in situation 4 did cause the dryer to turn on. To this neophyte, situation 4 should be no different than situation 3 in that there was already existing continuity between the two wires that were subsequently jumped. What in the heck is causing the dryer to turn on in situation 4 and not situation 3? (Might the answer be something to do with not enough current going through the timer in situation 3 but in situation 4, I directly shorted the timer sufficient to allow enough current to flow through the tan and white wires and thereby cause the dryer to function?) Note that in situation 4 (with the jumper between the tan and white wires and the dryer now turned on and operating), occasionally, as I spun the timer dial through 360 degrees of rotation, I could hear a faint growl coming from inside the timer as I was rotating the dial. The growl was not constant and the timer only emitted the growl in certain positions during the timer dial rotation. Well, that's it. Dryer repair and diagnosis is waaaay above my pay grade and I'll be the first to admit that I really have no idea what I am doing or test for continuity and, more importantly, test ACV readings or what constitutes OK ACV readings with the dryer plugged in. I've tried to describe each and everything that I did to isolate the problem but, quite frankly, situation 4 has me completely stumped. Thanks for any further insight you might be able to provide me. Best regards, Mike Sturgeon Originally Posted by Mike Sturgeon;1727191[B How can jumpering between two wires that were already confirming continuity now cause the dryer to turn on? I cannot see how I completed a circuit since I already had continuity between the two wires that I subsequently jumpered across.[/B] I erased a post. I first need to ask you if you jumpered between the tan and white wire, while they were still attached to the timer? - or if those 2 wires were taken off the timer and jumpered. Then the answer will become clear to me. Hi, Ecman51, You asked: I first need to ask you if you jumpered between the tan and white wire, while they were still attached to the timer? - or if those 2 wires were taken off the timer and jumpered. Then the answer will become clear to me. We did both. Just to make certain that my kids accurately relayed the test results to me, I went out to their house and repeated the tests I had asked them to perform. Here the results: 1. With all wires off of the timer, I tested continuity between the tan and white wires in the milky-white clip. We had continuity but it was only reading 190 (out of 250 max) on the meter's DC scale. 2. With just the tan and white wires attached to their timer, we had the same 190 continuity reading. 3. With all the wires EXCEPT for the tan and white wires re-connected to the dryer, testing the tan and white wires continued to give the same 190 continuity reading. 4. With all wires including the tan and white wires connected to the dryer, testing the tan and white wires (on the back of the milky-white clip) continued to show 190 continuity. 5. With all tests 1-4, as a 2nd part of each test, I made certain to test the two terminal posts on the back of the timer (where the tan and white wires would connect to). Without the tan and wires connected to these two timer terminal posts, the timer showed zero on the continuity scale. This test was run through all of the three timer dryer cycles. So, in sum, the dryer would not show continuity without any wires attached to the posts. With wires attached normally, the continuity, of course, showed 190 continuity but would not turn on. With the jumper then connected between the tan and white connection (i.e., stuck into the backside of the milky-white clip), the dryer would now turn on and provide heat, etc. I hope this clarifies my prior post and illustrates the exact series of continuity test run on the timer. (Of course, with all of the foregoing tests, the dryer was unplugged.) Thanks for any info in this regard. Best, Mike Sturgeon Originally Posted by Mike Sturgeon Hi, Ecman51, You asked: I first need to ask you if you jumpered between the tan and white wire, while they were still attached to the timer? - or if those 2 wires were taken off the timer and jumpered. Then the answer will become clear to me. We did both. Aaaiiieee! But you did not simply answer my question if the dryer runs if jumpered tan to white wires, with the wires off the timer post. 2. With just the tan and white wires attached to their timer, we had the same 190 continuity reading. To sift through the dialogue about the 190 continuity, the dryer maybe has to be running to fully complete that tan-white wire circuit that you can't figure out how it behaves the way it does. That circuit(tan-white) might only fully close after the start switch energizes the centrifugal switch and close the necessary contacts that keep the dryer running. Originally Posted by ecman51` Aaaiiieee! But you did not simply answer my question if the dryer runs if jumpered tan to white wires, with the wires off the timer post. OOPS! Sorry. I misunderstood what you were asking. I thought that you were only asking me what we had actually done test-wise and then report such test results. I did not understand that you wanted me to actually see it the dryer would run if jumpered while the tan and wire wires were unconnected. Sorry. (I'm now assuming you are asking me to remove only the tan and white wire connection (i.e., leave all the other timer wires connected), then perform the jumpering operation (between the timer terminals for the removed tan and white wires), then plug in the dryer, and then try to get the dryer to run (including pushing in the Push to Start button in conjunction with trying all three of the dryer timer cycles) .) Is this what you are asking me to do? BTW, what type of current will be running through this jumpered connection? 110V? Or, 220V? Thanks again for all your help and assistance in this matter. It is really really appreciated. I look forward to you confirming for me the specifics of the test you are asking me to perform. Best regards, Mike P.S. In case it matter (or mattered): In all the test that I have previously run and reported on, I did not ever disconnect two light brown wires that come pre-wired to the timer if you buy a replacement timer. (I only mention this fact if it is relevant in any of the continuity test results and also need to be disconnected for any of the aforesaid continuity tests to be meaningful or valid.) Oh. So that means you never did jumper the tan to the white, disconnected? Only when they were on the posts of the timer? Let me try to review things already said, in my head. Please tell me if I am right in saying the dryer would not start and run the normal way until you jumpered tan and white to each other while still connected to the timer? Is that it? If that is right: 1. Remove the tan and white wires off the timer posts and make 2 tests: 2. Test tan to ground and see if you have 120 volts, when plugged in and start button pushed. 3. Do same test with white wire. 4 and 5. Do same test with each of the two timer posts, each tested individually to ground. Be carefull with any dangling wires that they do not hit metal! Originally Posted by ecman51` Oh. So that means you never did jumper the tan to the white, disconnected? Only when they were on the posts of the timer? Let me try to review things already said, in my head. Please tell me if I am right in saying the dryer would not start and run the normal way until you jumpered tan and white to each other while still connected to the timer? Is that it? If that is right: 1. Remove the tan and white wires off the timer posts and make 2 tests: 2. Test tan to ground and see if you have 120 volts, when plugged in and start button pushed. 3. Do same test with white wire. 4 and 5. Do same test with each of the two timer posts, each tested individually to ground. Be carefull with any dangling wires that they do not hit metal! Hi, Ecman51. I think I understand your instructions (even tho you mentioned two tests and then wrote: 2. and 4 and 5..) I think what you are asking me to do is: 1. With the dryer plugged in, to test each of the two wires (one at a time) by turning the meter to ACV (250V) by sticking the + lead (red?) into the connector and then touching the - lead (black?) to the dryer frame and see if I get 110V during each test. And then, 2. With the dryer plugged in, to test each of the two terminals on the back of the timer (one at a time) by turning the meter to ACV (250V) by sticking the + lead (red?) onto the male connector of the male connector and then touching the - lead (black?) to the dryer frame and see if I get 110V during each test. Total of four tests (separately testing each of the two wires to ground and separately testing each of the two timer male connectors to ground), The test are each performed as follows: With the dryer plugged in, then touch each probe as above-described for each test, then selecting one of the three dryer timer settings and then pushing the Push to Start button and see if I get a 110V reading for each of the four tests. (Actually, I suppose using the probes can be done after the dryer is plugged in, the timer turned to an on position and the start button pushed. Correct?) Sorry to be so precise in my questions about the procedure; I'm not an electrician and I want to make certain that I am setting up the meter correctly for the ACV tests and then that I am using the test probes correctly. And,...I will be careful and make certain that no wire touches the frame and grounds out. I'm apprehensive about 110V electricity. I am absolutely extremely uncomfortable around 220V electricity. (Actually, there is no danger of any bare wire touching the dryer frame because the tan and the white wires are encapsulated (and insulated) within the milky-white female connector cap and the two male posts on the timer (that the milky-white connector cap with tan and white wires connects to) are each only 1/2 long and are well spaced away from each other and the dryer frame or any other bare metal surface. Thanks again for your help here. I think that 'm beginning to see where you are going with these tests. I'm guessing that you are now testing to see if we are getting 110V to each of the 110V circuits so that, together, the timer is receiving each 110V source of electricity and the dryer will then be receiving the required 220V total. Thanks again for all the help. I'll go over to the kids house in the morning after I receive clarification from you regarding my aforesaid clarifying questions. To many post I think the orignal post said would not run but heats (correct?) I will pull out my wiring diagram today and see the wires you are talking about,(I have similar dryer at home) . As I said before forget anything that dose not have to do with the motor side of circuit. Originally Posted by pugsl To many post I think the orignal post said would not run but heats (correct?) I will pull out my wiring diagram today and see the wires you are talking about,(I have similar dryer at home) . As I said before forget anything that dose not have to do with the motor side of circuit. Hi, Pugs!. No. Not correct. The dryer will not run at all unless I first jumper between the tan and white wire on the back of the timer. Once the dryer is jumpered as above-described, then the dryer will heat or not heat depending on if I disconnect some wires from (what are apparently) thermostats. Also, once the jumper is jumpered as above-described, the dryer will not turn on at all if the thermo fuse (that you mentioned in a prior post) is first disconnected. But, to answer your above question, the overall problem is that the dryer will not start unless jumpered as above described. Thanks, in advance, for taking the time to look at this wiring diagram. If you'd like to see a picture of the wiring diagram I have, I can upload it to yousendit for your download of it. Same for uploading a picture of the dryer timer. (Both with or without the wiring attached to it.) Best, Mike had computer problems today did not get time to look at diagram, will try later Originally Posted by Mike Sturgeon Hi, Ecman51. I think I understand your instructions (even tho you mentioned two tests and then wrote: 2. and 4 and 5..) I think what you are asking me to do is: 1. With the dryer plugged in, to test each of the two wires (one at a time) by turning the meter to ACV (250V) by sticking the + lead (red?) into the connector and then touching the - lead (black?) to the dryer frame and see if I get 110V during each test. And then, 2. With the dryer plugged in, to test each of the two terminals on the back of the timer (one at a time) by turning the meter to ACV (250V) by sticking the + lead (red?) onto the male connector of the male connector and then touching the - lead (black?) to the dryer frame and see if I get 110V during each test. Total of four tests (separately testing each of the two wires to ground and separately testing each of the two timer male connectors to ground), The test are each performed as follows: With the dryer plugged in, then touch each probe as above-described for each test, then selecting one of the three dryer timer settings and then pushing the Push to Start button and see if I get a 110V reading for each of the four tests. (Actually, I suppose using the probes can be done after the dryer is plugged in, the timer turned to an on position and the start button pushed. Correct?) Sorry to be so precise in my questions about the procedure; I'm not an electrician and I want to make certain that I am setting up the meter correctly for the ACV tests and then that I am using the test probes correctly. And,...I will be careful and make certain that no wire touches the frame and grounds out. I'm apprehensive about 110V electricity. I am absolutely extremely uncomfortable around 220V electricity. (Actually, there is no danger of any bare wire touching the dryer frame because the tan and the white wires are encapsulated (and insulated) within the milky-white female connector cap and the two male posts on the timer (that the milky-white connector cap with tan and white wires connects to) are each only 1/2 long and are well spaced away from each other and the dryer frame or any other bare metal surface. Thanks again for your help here. I think that 'm beginning to see where you are going with these tests. I'm guessing that you are now testing to see if we are getting 110V to each of the 110V circuits so that, together, the timer is receiving each 110V source of electricity and the dryer will then be receiving the required 220V total. Thanks again for all the help. I'll go over to the kids house in the morning after I receive clarification from you regarding my aforesaid clarifying questions. The whole idea for my electrical testing request was to see where the 120 volts is coming from. Then we will have a handle on exactly why the dryer ran when you jumpered the tan and white wire(days ago). Now this is the part I do not get: I was under the impression that you jumpered tan to white while they were hooked to the timer. But after reading this new post of yours, I see you say that the tan and white wires are inside a milky white color jack. So now I have to ask you again if you jumpered the tan and white wire (days ago) with the tan and white wire milky jack hooked up - or - disconnected from the timer posts. If it was disconnected, you do not have to do any more tests. That would mean that probably the tan is 120 hot, and by you jumpering to the white......rather than the tan sending power into the timer contacts....you bypassed it, and sent it directly to the motor. Then it really would seem like a timer issue you have. But it be nice to see a schematic to see if one can identify that tan white wire circuit. Regarding your being more at ease working on 120 than 240: In actuality, short of a person grabbing hold of one 120 wire in one hand and another 120 from another 'leg' in the other hand, when testing individual wires on a 240 volt appliance ........ what usually happens during some kind of accident say where one wire touches your skin or otherwise grounds out, that one wire is 120. What has happened to me though on more than one occassion is testing across the two wires to see if I have 240, with the voltmeter set to 250 VAC, then forgetting to unplug the appliance before testing those same two wires for ohms, and having 240 volts zap my test meter, and wrecking it. Luckily I only spend $3 on them. Originally Posted by ecman51` ** Now this is the part I do not get: I was under the impression that you jumpered tan to white while they were hooked to the timer. But after reading this new post of yours, I see you say that the tan and white wires are inside a milky white color jack. So now I have to ask you again if you jumpered the tan and white wire (days ago) with the tan and white wire milky jack hooked up - or - disconnected from the timer posts. *** But it be nice to see a schematic to see if one can identify that tan white wire circuit. *** Hi, Ecman51. Sorry if my descriptions were not clear. The jumering between the tan and the white wires was done when the dryer was in its pristine ready to run state. That is, all of the wires and connectors were hooked up. It was as if I had just taken off the back dryer panel, and then stuck a small jumper between the back side of the tan and white wires as the milky-white connector was still connected to each of the two terminal posts coming off the backside of the timer. I'm going to go over to my son's house tonight or tomorrow (I've been laid up for four days with the flu.) and I'm going to run the two sets of metered tests you previously requested. And, as I mentioned before, since I don't believe that I can provide an attachment to my forum messages here. (i.e., forum rules), I would be happy to provide the wiring diagram (.pdf files I made) either via an email or by posting it on yousendit and then providing you that yousendit link. If either option appeals to you, just let me know. And, as always, thanks again to both you and pugs! for all your help (and patience with me). Mike That is what I thought you said you did - with the jack connected. How did you get the jumper in there? Wel, anyway, by testing for hot at all 4 spots: tan wire to ground, white wire to ground, timer post 1 to ground, timer post 2 to ground - with the dryer pushed to start, you will find out which is the incoming hot wire - if it comes through the timer into the tan or white, or from the tan or white into the timer. Originally Posted by ecman51` That is what I thought you said you did - with the jack connected. How did you get the jumper in there? Wel, anyway, by testing for hot at all 4 spots: tan wire to ground, white wire to ground, timer post 1 to ground, timer post 2 to ground - with the dryer pushed to start, you will find out which is the incoming hot wire - if it comes through the timer into the tan or white, or from the tan or white into the timer. Hello, Ecman51 and Pugsl. I ran the dryer tests that ecman51 requested and here are the results: With the tan and the white wires disconnected from the two dryer terminal posts and then with the dryer plugged in, the Push to Start button pushed and with the timer set mid-way on on one of the timer settings, here are the results: 1. No electrical meter reading when either timer terminal is tested (with the other meter lead going to ground, of course). 2. When touching the tan wire and the ground, no electrical meter reading. 3. When touching the white wire and the ground with the two meter leads, I received a 110V meter reading. (This suggested to me that, by jumpering between the backside of the tan and white wires when they are connected to the two dryer terminal posts (via the milky-white connector), I was now supplying the white wire's 110V leg to both of the two dryer terminal posts....and the dryer turned on.) Curious as to why and where the tan wire came from and did not supply its 110V leg of current, I traced the tan wire back into the dryer wiring. Almost immediately, the tan wire (i.e., connected to the dryer terminal) was spliced into a 3 to1 wire splice. The tan wire (coming from the timer terminal) was spliced in with a blue wire and a red/black wire. (The blue wire goes to the dryer door switch and the red/black wire goes to the Push to Start switch.) Coming out of the other end of the 3 to 1 splice connection is a single thin purple wire that goes down to a thermostat (?) device (i.e. Device A) that has four wires attached to it. (This Device A is located at the bottom end of the exhaust chute and is immediately below the two wire white thermostat fuse that pugsl mentioned in a prior post.) These four wires attached to this Device A thermostat (?) are: 1. A thick red wire that goes from this device over to a thermostat (?) device at the lower part of the hot air chute right ext to the dryer heater element. 2. A thick red/white wire that goes from this device over to a thermostat (?) device at the upper part of the hot air chute right where the hot air opening into the dryer drum is located. 3. A thin purple wire that goes from this Device A and immediately up to a connection on the other side of the dryer timer. 4. The thin purple wire that goes from this device and immediately connects into the afore-described 3 to 1 splice. Note: In testing for 110V current on all of these four terminals of Device A, I had a current meter reading on 1, 2 and 3 above but not at terminal 4. (This lack of current for #4 makes sense since, in effect this is just an extension of the tan wire previously tested and which did not show any 110V current meter reading when I ran the tests that ecman51 had requested.) Note also that when I performed a continuity test between the # 3 and the #4 posts on this Device A (i.e., the two thin purple wires), I showed some very weak continuity. (i.e., the meter needle swung over about 35%-40% of the needle's full swing arc. For comparison, if I touched the two meter leads together, the meter needle would swing 100% full over.). Is this normal? Or does this indicate that this Device A is defective (blown, or otherwise)? I definitely am not getting 110V across the two legs of these two posts because I am definitely not getting 110V from terminal #4 up to the dryer terminal that the tan wire is connected to. Query: Based on all of the foregoing, do you feel that Device A is the culprit and the problem is not the dryer timer? Or, might both the Device A and the timer be malfunctioning, or??? Note also that the dryer timer is making a very loud growling noise when the dryer is plugged on and the dryer timer switch is placed in an on portion of the cycle. Sometimes the timer will growl for quite a few seconds after the timer is left in an on position, sometimes it will not quit growling until the timer switch is in an off position, and sometimes the growling seems to disappear if the timer knob is rotated a little bit backwards or forwards. (Is this growling relevant to the problem? Well, I hope my ramblings and my further testings and tracing of the wires at the 3 to 2 switch and at Device A might be helpful in assisting you in this online diagnosis. Thanks again for taking the time to read through my long narrative descriptions and for any further insights you might have regarding this vexatious dryer problem. Best regards, Mike Sturgeon Hi, ecman51 and Pugs1, Did my last forum post answer the questions(s) you had concerning the dryer timer circuitry and live electrical connections? 1. Is the 1/2/ continuity reading normal for the thermostat located next to the thermal fuse? I would have suspected that a continuity reading would be all or nothing..either 100% or 0% and not 40%. 2. Does the fact that one of the timer live leads (the white) does show 110V reading and the other (the tan) shows no reading indicate that the timer is internally defective? (Note that the dead tan wire was traced down to the thermostat that was giving the 40% continuity reading across the two thin wire connections. The two thick wire connections on this thermostat showed both 100% continuity and each wire showed 110V ACV reading.) 3. Howabout the loud timer growling noise when the dryer is plugged in and the timer turned to an on position? Thanks for any info in these regards. And, I hope both of you and your families have a wonderful Memorial Day Weekend. Best, Mike I think what you are reading is the heater circuit in the thermostat, My wiring diagram says violet wire, the smaller of the 4 wires. It is the thermostat that controls heat, Not a thing to do with running. Only tan wire goes though the signal switch and buzzer, not connected with running. What has to do with running is timer, thermo fuse, motor( pluggable drive motor switch, bottom of wiring diagram) door switch and push to start switch, If running problem forget all the rest. I get dizzy trying to read your post way to much info. Just reread last post is the noise when you push the push to start switch ( a hum) Try this hold down the door switch, push the push to start and try to turn the drum( in the right direction) If it starts you need a motor, Most important info you have given. Motor has a bad start winding. Originally Posted by Mike Sturgeon Hello, Ecman51 and Pugsl. I ran the dryer tests that ecman51 requested and here are the results: With the tan and the white wires disconnected from the two dryer terminal posts and then with the dryer plugged in, the Push to Start button pushed and with the timer set mid-way on on one of the timer settings, here are the results: 1. No electrical meter reading when either timer terminal is tested (with the other meter lead going to ground, of course). 2. When touching the tan wire and the ground, no electrical meter reading. 3. When touching the white wire and the ground with the two meter leads, I received a 110V meter reading. (This suggested to me that, by jumpering between the backside of the tan and white wires when they are connected to the two dryer terminal posts (via the milky-white connector), I was now supplying the white wire's 110V leg to both of the two dryer terminal posts....and the dryer turned on.) Curious as to why and where the tan wire came from and did not supply its 110V leg of current, I traced the tan wire back into the dryer wiring. Almost immediately, the tan wire (i.e., connected to the dryer terminal) was spliced into a 3 to1 wire splice. The tan wire (coming from the timer terminal) was spliced in with a blue wire and a red/black wire. (The blue wire goes to the dryer door switch and the red/black wire goes to the Push to Start switch.) Coming out of the other end of the 3 to 1 splice connection is a single thin purple wire that goes down to a thermostat (?) device (i.e. Device A) that has four wires attached to it. (This Device A is located at the bottom end of the exhaust chute and is immediately below the two wire white thermostat fuse that pugsl mentioned in a prior post.) These four wires attached to this Device A thermostat (?) are: 1. A thick red wire that goes from this device over to a thermostat (?) device at the lower part of the hot air chute right ext to the dryer heater element. 2. A thick red/white wire that goes from this device over to a thermostat (?) device at the upper part of the hot air chute right where the hot air opening into the dryer drum is located. 3. A thin purple wire that goes from this Device A and immediately up to a connection on the other side of the dryer timer. 4. The thin purple wire that goes from this device and immediately connects into the afore-described 3 to 1 splice. Note: In testing for 110V current on all of these four terminals of Device A, I had a current meter reading on 1, 2 and 3 above but not at terminal 4. (This lack of current for #4 makes sense since, in effect this is just an extension of the tan wire previously tested and which did not show any 110V current meter reading when I ran the tests that ecman51 had requested.) Note also that when I performed a continuity test between the # 3 and the #4 posts on this Device A (i.e., the two thin purple wires), I showed some very weak continuity. (i.e., the meter needle swung over about 35%-40% of the needle's full swing arc. For comparison, if I touched the two meter leads together, the meter needle would swing 100% full over.). Is this normal? Or does this indicate that this Device A is defective (blown, or otherwise)? I definitely am not getting 110V across the two legs of these two posts because I am definitely not getting 110V from terminal #4 up to the dryer terminal that the tan wire is connected to. Query: Based on all of the foregoing, do you feel that Device A is the culprit and the problem is not the dryer timer? Or, might both the Device A and the timer be malfunctioning, or??? Note also that the dryer timer is making a very loud growling noise when the dryer is plugged on and the dryer timer switch is placed in an on portion of the cycle. Sometimes the timer will growl for quite a few seconds after the timer is left in an on position, sometimes it will not quit growling until the timer switch is in an off position, and sometimes the growling seems to disappear if the timer knob is rotated a little bit backwards or forwards. (Is this growling relevant to the problem? Well, I hope my ramblings and my further testings and tracing of the wires at the 3 to 2 switch and at Device A might be helpful in assisting you in this online diagnosis. Thanks again for taking the time to read through my long narrative descriptions and for any further insights you might have regarding this vexatious dryer problem. Best regards, Mike Sturgeon Oh my! I could make this post and your dryer my career. Early on in this post I think you answered enough right there. So it is the white wire where the power comes from, and goes into the timer - and probably powers up the timer thru necessary cycle contacts inside it where then it is sent back through the tan wire. I really suspect the timer is bad. If I was in your shoes and could not stomach the monetary loss from a misdiagnosis, I'd probably carefuly try to pop open the timer and look for fried contact points. There are oodles of them inside, usually at least 2 rows deep and maybe 3. Then second I have even bought used timers from used appliance parts shops, in the past for fraction of cost of new - if cost is the issue. Hello - I am Mike's son. I wanted to take just a moment and thank everyone (Dad included!) for all of your time that you spent trying to diagnose my dryer's malady. It really means a lot to my wife and I that each of you would take time out of your busy schedules to offer us some free advice. We will perform these tests right away and will get back to you. From the bottom of my heart, thanks again!!! Hello, pugsl and echman51. Thank you for all your help on this problem. Your advice was critical in helping me diagnose the problem. My son and daughter-in-law saved up the money and purchased a replacement timer and,...it worked perfectly!! Thank you again for all your help in this matter. It was (and is) deeply appreciated by me and the kids. Best regards, Mike P.S. Without taking the old timer apart, I am assuming that the rattle' is a contact point that came off of the contact point apparatus. Just having a wild hair, assuming that it is a fallen-off contact point, can the contact point be soldered back onto the spring arm from which it became unattached? Would it be worth the trouble to attempt this so that the kids could have a spare timer? Or, IYHO, should they just trash the old defective timer? Toss the old timer if contact came off there not replaceable or not worth the tine it would take. Did you check your Door Switch? The Dryer Will not do anything if the door switch is bad. $8.95 on eBay. Installs in 10 minutes.This Model has a bad design. I am sure that a kindergarten class got together and designed it. Welcome to the forums. Thanks for the advice but this thread is over three years old. I'd hope after all this time that his dryer was running ok. Thanks for asking. Yes. the dryer is fine. We ended up taking a chance that the timer was bad...and the new timer fixed the problem. That said, about a year ago, the Estate washer went bad and, because we could never figure out get into the machine to test and/or replace the suspected bad timer in it, we junked out the washer and purchased a good used washer. the washer dryer now don't match but the used washer is doing a better job washing clothes than the ole Estate washer ever did. Go figure. Thanks again to all on this forum who provided me with such excellent advice. It was and is deeply appreciated. Mike
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