Hi Guys,
First post here.
We bought a house this summer and it has a in-floor heating system with a boiler.
The boiler is working fine, and I get very hot water for my domestic use.
But I am still having problems with the in-floor heating system though.
There are two zones with two thermostats, the zone-valves open and close fine, and the pump is spinning, but the supply pipes only get hot for about 2 meters, and the return pipes never get hot. so I think the pump may not be pumping enough water flow?
The pump is a Grundfos UPS 15-42F, and it is located on the hot water supply side, so it is pushing I guess. The motorized zone valves are located in the return pipe sides.
I have some questions about the pump.
1. does it have a installation direction? I mean, this particular pump seems installed back-wards compared to 2 other pumps in the system (one in the boiler return pipe, and one in another place), IF it indeed was installed the wrong way, will I get any flow/hot water in the pipes?
2. is it normal for a hot water pump to get its propeller loose from the shaft, so it is spinning but not pumping. (I know some car's water pumps do that when they get old, and when they do that, you get overheat engine, because of less water flow).
3. there is a switch on the pump control panel, with 1,2,3 markings, I assume this is flow rate switch?
4. The bladder type expansion tank was broken, so I replaced that, and found out the air vent release valve (where the expansion tank was attached to) is also broken, will this cause the problem I am having? There is another air vent in the system, located very high up, and when I loose it, only water came out. so I am guessing I may not have air in the pipes?
5. What other problems can it be?
Thanks a lots guys, I really need some help here. Please Help!
Hexar
Sounds like an air problem isolate boiler from manifolds attach garden hose to manifold and street supply push water through each zone at a time letting return water escape to sewer until a solid stream results.
Originally Posted by saves
Sounds like an air problem isolate boiler from manifolds attach garden hose to manifold and street supply push water through each zone at a time letting return water escape to sewer until a solid stream results.
Thanks saves! I appreciate the reply!
Please take a look at the following pictures of the setup.
P1120620.jpg picture by HexarAndHexanon - Photobucket
P1120622.jpg picture by HexarAndHexanon - Photobucket
I guess the installer did not put in a manifold, and I cannot seem to disconnect the supply nor the return lines. Or maybe I can disconnect the return lines from the check valves, where I marked with a blue arrow?
Thanks!
Hexar
I
1. does it have a installation direction?
Yes it does.
Take pictures of your system and upload them to a free account at Image hosting, free photo sharing video sharing at Photobucket and come back here and post a link to your PUBLIC album. We'll take a look-see and let ya know what we think.
Please make sure that the pics are IN FOCUS, WELL LIGHTED, and LARGE ENOUGH for old dudes to see. Take pictures from several angles and also take several from far enough back that we can see the entire system.
2. is it normal for a hot water pump to get its propeller loose from the shaft,
No... of course that's not 'normal'... but you really mean Does it ever happen? and I would say that if it does, I've never seen it.
3. there is a switch on the pump control panel, with 1,2,3 markings, I assume this is flow rate switch?
Flow rate? Yeah, sorta, indirectly. It's pump SPEED, and of course a higher speed would flow more water. But even on ONE it should pump water through the loop.
4. ...found out the air vent release valve (where the expansion tank was attached to) is also broken, will this cause the problem I am having?
It certainly could CONTRIBUTE to the problem!
5. What other problems can it be?
What the guy before me said... it could be 'air bound'. If you have air blocks in the piping, that's as good as a cork at stopping the flow.
Before you go doing all what he said though, take those pictures so that we may properly instruct... and maybe we'll see something else...
What is the reading on the PRESSURE and TEMPERATURE gauge on the boiler?
Hex! Slow down!
Dont go disconnecting anything!
Read my post first!
Originally Posted by NJ Trooper
What is the reading on the PRESSURE and TEMPERATURE gauge on the boiler?
Thanks Trooper for the reply too!
The pressure was 10-12 after I replaced the expansion tank. Before that it was 4-5 when cold, and 12-14 when the boiler was running hot. And I found water when I press the bicycle tire like air valve under the expansion tank, so I thought that was bad, so I replaced it.
We hired a journeyman plumber yesterday, and he could not find out what went wrong, so he increased the pressure to 15-20 when hot, I am not quite sure he did this right though.
The temperature I think is around 150F (about 65C) if I remember correctly.
The setup is very strange, there is a connection between the hot manifold and cold return line, and there is a check valve on that line. The valve was open, so I got warm water at the hot manifold, but this morning, after I shut the valve closed, the water temperature have been up to 150F.
I have posted two small pictures when I replied saves, I will upload more when I get home tonight.
Thanks again for your help! And I will not disconnect anything yet.
I forgot to mention, I think, there are two air vents,
1. the first is where the expansion tank was connected to, after I replaced the tank, I found out that this vent is bad, the float inside is all messed up.
2. the second one (I think it is a air vent) can be found out in my second picture, where I marked with yellow text bleed here?. It is high on top of two return lines. Although the whole setup is in the basement, and my master bedroom (one of the two zones) floor is maybe 15-20 feet above that. The house is a four level split, boiler is at the very bottom level, and my bedroom is at the highest. The other zone is about 10 feet above the boiler.
Sorry, got called away for a bit...
Those pics aren't too bad actually, let me take a good look at them in a few minutes.
And I found water when I press the bicycle tire like air valve under the expansion tank, so I thought that was bad, so I replaced it.
Ya done good.
Did you check the air 'pre-charge' before you installed the new tank? It should be between 12 and 15 PSI ... but remember, you can NOT check that air charge if there is any water pressure in the system.
he could not find out what went wrong, so he increased the pressure to 15-20 when hot, I am not quite sure he did this right though.
This was an OK thing to do. A little more pressure in the system sometimes will compress an air bubble that is blocking the flow and cause it to move... sometimes.
there is a connection between the hot manifold and cold return line, and there is a check valve on that line.
This sounds like a bypass line... but you say 'check valve' ... which may or may not be the correct name... hopefully I can see it in the pics when I look.
my master bedroom (one of the two zones) floor is maybe 15-20 feet above that.
The formula for knowing how much pressure you need (with a COLD boiler) is:
0.431 X HEIGHT IN FEET + 4 PSI
So, if it's 20 feet, 8.62 + 4 = 12.62 PSI MINIMUM COLD BOILER.
A little more is fine, but you never want to go less than that.
more after I looky yer pics.
I do see a 'check valve' in one of the lines, and there is a 'ball valve' to the left. Is that the one you are talking about?
OK, those pics aren't real hard to see, but they are a bit small for my tired old eyes... so do take some more, the bigger the better... at least 1000 pixels wide is good... and take them from several angles so I can see stuff that might be hiding behind other stuff.
Those items that you've got question marks next to are your electric ZONE VALVES. Those are connected to your thermostats. When the thermostat calls for heat, the zone valve opens, and when the valve opens, it tells the boiler to fire up.
I also need to see the boiler, and where the pipes come out of it so I can tell which is supply and which is return... I see you've got some flow direction arrows... that's a help too, as long as they are correct!
Thanks a lot NJ Trooper. I will definitely take more pictures this evening when I get home, I am in the mountain time zone, so it will probably be a while yet.
I am a computer programmer (they call us code monkeys), so I don't know plumbing terms very well. Sorry for the confusions. Hopefully the bigger pictures I take this evening will clear up things more.
When I say check valve, I meant the valve with a handle on it, where you can turn it 90 degrees to shut the flow.
And before I installed the tank, I checked the pressure, it was 12PSI, although I just used a bicycle gauge, not sure how accurate it is. It is a WATTS 30 tank, about 2 gal I think.
The setup is very strange. I have in total 3 pumps (all the same model),
1. the boiler has two big pipes, I assume the right side is the hot water out, and the left side is the cooler water in? The first pump is connected to the left side (the cooler side).
2. since I have a 1972 furnace (when the house was built), it is those 80% efficiency ones, with 100K BTU output (137K BTU in). So when the previous owner did the addition (they added the master bedroom (one zone) and a sun-room and a mud-room. These two rooms are the second zone.
In order to help the furnace (I am guessing), they installed a heat-exchanger within the main duct of the furnace (right above the furnace main body), and there is pipe for hot water in and hot water out. The second pump is for this.
3. the third pump is used to pump hot water to two zones.
The first and second pump's direction match what I think the water flow should be. However the 3rd pump is different (since they are the same model, I assumed 3rd pump's direction based on the first 2's), if the 3rd pump flows like the first 2 pumps, then it is sucking water from the hot pipe back to the boiler.
This is why I asked if there is an installation direction.
Anyways, I will take more pictures.
Thanks a lot again for the help! I feel more confident that this can be fixed now.
On the boiler, the supply pipe comes out at a point higher than the return pipe.
You may have what is called primary/secondary piping. Check out: Technical Menu Read the primary/secondary tutorial to understand what that is all about. All the stuff on that site is a good read and will help get you familiar with your hydronic system. Asking lots of questions here will do the same.
Originally Posted by NJ Trooper
OK, those pics aren't real hard to see, but they are a bit small for my tired old eyes... so do take some more, the bigger the better... at least 1000 pixels wide is good... and take them from several angles so I can see stuff that might be hiding behind other stuff.
Those items that you've got question marks next to are your electric ZONE VALVES. Those are connected to your thermostats. When the thermostat calls for heat, the zone valve opens, and when the valve opens, it tells the boiler to fire up.
I also need to see the boiler, and where the pipes come out of it so I can tell which is supply and which is return... I see you've got some flow direction arrows... that's a help too, as long as they are correct!
Thanks again!
The direction arrows are from my observations: I touch the pipe before and after the zone valve opens, so I know water flows into the pipe, because it was cold then got warm.
However, I am not 100% sure about boiler's pipe. I think the left side is the cooler side, the right side is the hot side, just by touching them.
Originally Posted by drooplug
On the boiler, the supply pipe comes out at a point higher than the return pipe.
You may have what is called primary/secondary piping. Check out: Technical Menu Read the primary/secondary tutorial to understand what that is all about. All the stuff on that site is a good read and will help get you familiar with your hydronic system. Asking lots of questions here will do the same.
Thanks Drooplug! I will definitely give it a good read.
I don't remember which one is taller, the supply pipe or the return pipe, I will take pictures tonight.
Thanks again!
I've hacked at some code myself over the years and am probably as good a programmer as you are boiler tech! I enjoy fooling with PIC processors and basic stamps... it's been a while now, I see they have something interesting called Arduino (spelling?) now that I might mess with someday.
But let's not get off the subject!
In order to help the furnace (I am guessing), they installed a heat-exchanger within the main duct of the furnace (right above the furnace main body),
That's called a 'hydro-air' setup. When you say 'furnace' I assume that you mean the 'air handler' for the forced air system that also supplies your A/C in the summer, right?
When I say check valve, I meant the valve with a handle on it, where you can turn it 90 degrees to shut the flow.
Them 1/4 turn jobbies are 'ball valves', but as I said, I do also see a check valve there I think.
1. the boiler has two big pipes, I assume the right side is the hot water out, and the left side is the cooler water in? The first pump is connected to the left side (the cooler side).
Can't see the boiler in the pics, so left/right don't mean nothin' yet... but in general, the HOT SUPPLY OUT of the boiler will be from the TOP of the boiler, or nearly so, and the COOL RETURN INTO the boiler will always be near the bottom.
I am in the mountain time zone, so it will probably be a while yet.
By the time you get home, I may be incoherent...
I meant that the spot that it is located on the boiler is above the return.
Hi Guys,
Here are more pictures.
Pictures by HexarAndHexanon - Photobucket
I will try to draw a schematic of the system and upload that later.
Thanks!
Hex
Originally Posted by NJ Trooper
By the time you get home, I may be incoherent...
Sorry for the late reply, I had to send the kids to different activities before I could settle down and taking the photos.
By furnace, I mean the force aire furnace. I live in Calgary, Alberta, Canada, a place about 2 meters south of north pole, and about 3000 feet elevation, so we get about 1 week pre-summer, 1 week post summer, and 50 weeks of hockey season, oops, I mean 50 weeks of winter. so we don't need AC, and I don't think we have one, at least I could not find the outside unit that has big fan and stuff.
Have a good night!
Hex
Originally Posted by drooplug
I meant that the spot that it is located on the boiler is above the return.
hi drooplug,
I checked (as can be seen in the picture), the boiler is called Mini-Gas super hot, and based on the user manual found here:
Mini-Gas Boiler - Dimensions and Specifications - Products for Hydronic Heating Systems - Allied Engineering Company
it seems (if you are facing it), the left is inlet, and right is outlet... so i guess my hand touching measurement method seems working.
Thanks,
Hex
I have uploaded the schematic. I checked multiple times making sure it is as correct as possible.
the valve symbol with a bar stands for a ball valve (I meant ball valve when I said check valve this morning, sorry about that).
the valve symbol with a circle stands for shut off valve.
the valve symbol with a M on top stands for zone valve.
the circle with a P stands for pump.
a fat T symbol with an arrow in it, stands for check valve. (only two in total, I think these are check valves, they have an arrow on their cast body)
There is a strange fitting, it has a copper wire coming out of its bottom end and the other end of the wire connects to a pipe end. There is a screw on cap on the top of this fitting, and there is marking on the side, you can see it on the 11th photo in the album.
schematic.jpg picture by HexarAndHexanon - Photobucket
Thanks!
Excellent...
First off, one of your closed valve must be opened.
In your diagram, it's the one that appears lower in the diagram.
Open it all the way. You definitely do not want that valve closed. Later on we'll talk about any possible benefit (I don't think there will be any) that throttling that valve might provide, but for now, all the way open.
This will not miraculously get your zone working, but that one pump sure will be a lot happier.
[edit: ya know what, on second thought, opening that valve MIGHT miraculously cure the no-heat issue... open it immediately and see what happens. With it CLOSED, you will have little to no flow through the floor!]
Next, let's talk about pumping directons...
What you SHOULD have, based on the piping is:
The pump to the LEFT of the boiler should be pumping DOWNWARD, INTO the boiler.
The pump leading to your Hydro-Air handler should be pumping AWAY from the boiler, TOWARD the air handler.
The final pump, on the heating circuits should be pumping toward the LEFT, toward the TEMP gauge that's installed up there.
more...
Whoever built this thing must own stock in a ball valve factory.
That 'funny' gray valve with the wire on it... that's not a wire, it's a 'capillary tube', and on the end of that tube is a sensing 'bulb' inserted into a well in the top of that fitting. That gray thingy is a THERMOSTATIC VALVE.
In your first post, you said:
I am still having problems with the in-floor heating system
and I take this to mean that you have radiant heat tubing in the floor of all the rooms.
The water in that tubing should ( must ) be cooler than the water that runs into the hydro-air handler, and the indirect water heater. Usually around 100°... maybe 110°... but the bottom line is that you don't want the floor surfaces themselves any hotter than say 85°. The hydro and water heater need up to 180° water.
So what your designers have done is create two parallel 'loops', one that wraps around the boiler itself, and the other that wraps around the heating circuits.
The gray valve should be setup so that you have 100-110 F water flowing through the in-floor tubing. The way this works is that when the gray valve senses the water in the floor is cooling, it will open up and allow some 180 water to trickle in from the boiler loop. The flow into the pipes is coming from two places... either ALL from that bottom bypass (which is the valve I said to open)... OR when the gray valve opens it will MIX some boiler water and some bypass water. Notice that there's also a tee on the return side of the loops... think about it for a few minutes and you will understand the concept.
I have ABSOLUTELY NO IDEA what that other 'bypass' with the check valve is for, especially since the direction of the check valve seems totally opposite from the flow. It just don't make any sense to me... yet... so leave that valve closed for now (even though the check valve will prevent any bypass flow).
Please take another look at that check valve and confirm it's flow direction. Your diagram has the arrow pointing DOWN.
more...
Regarding air removal in this system:
That vent on high is probably worthless in removing any air. In order for that type of vent to do ANYTHING at all, the system must be designed such that air will actually be collected underneath the vent. If there are air bubbles in the water flow, they are gonna zing right past that thing. Any air that's in the underfloor tubing will for the most part pretty much stay there forever. Round and round she goes... It might catch an occasional bubble that happens to be in that pipe when the pump shuts off, but other than that, useless. It will have some function when draining and refilling the system though.
A much better solution would be to have a 'micro-bubble scrubber' in the main flow through that loop.
But, if you don't HEAR air, you are probably OK with it the way it is.
As you said, it seems what the designers forgot to include are methods to purge air from the system. There should be a few strategically placed 'purge stations', a drain valve and a ball valve together that would allow you to 'steer' water through the various portions of the piping in order to drive any air through and out the drain.
Originally Posted by NJ Trooper
Excellent...
First off, one of your closed valve must be opened.
In your diagram, it's the one that appears lower in the diagram.
Open it all the way. You definitely do not want that valve closed. Later on we'll talk about any possible benefit (I don't think there will be any) that throttling that valve might provide, but for now, all the way open.
This will not miraculously get your zone working, but that one pump sure will be a lot happier.
[edit: ya know what, on second thought, opening that valve MIGHT miraculously cure the no-heat issue... open it immediately and see what happens. With it CLOSED, you will have little to no flow through the floor!]
Next, let's talk about pumping directons...
What you SHOULD have, based on the piping is:
The pump to the LEFT of the boiler should be pumping DOWNWARD, INTO the boiler.
The pump leading to your Hydro-Air handler should be pumping AWAY from the boiler, TOWARD the air handler.
The final pump, on the heating circuits should be pumping toward the LEFT, toward the TEMP gauge that's installed up there.
more...
Thanks Trooper,
I have openned the valve. (the lower right side one on the diagram)
It was open, but I felt the water at the 3rd pump is not as hot as that from the boiler output, then I analyzed it, and thought this valve allows cooler water to come back and mix with hot water, and that is why I closed it (stupid decision I guess).
After I closed it, the water temperature raised quite a bit, it was about 130, and after I closed it, it was about 160.
What does this valve do?
Thanks I will read your other posts...
regarding the pump directions, I think I got the same conclusions as yours, I have this stupid way of seeing it:
If you face the round pump shaft with the nameplate printed, and with the control box on the top, then water flows from left to right.
The first and second pump flow in this direction.
However, if this is right, then the 3rd pump (the pump that circulates water to zones) should flow from the zones back to the boiler, which is not what I observated.
That is why I ask the pumping direction question.
Originally Posted by NJ Trooper
Whoever built this thing must own stock in a ball valve factory.
Please take another look at that check valve and confirm it's flow direction. Your diagram has the arrow pointing DOWN.
more...
When I bought the house, I was so scared of those valves, I did not want to touch any one of them.
The problem is, the lady who sold the house to us does not know anything, and her husband, who took care the whole thing, passed away, so I could not even ask anyone even some basic info.
The old lady told us she has in-floor heating, under the sun-room, mud-room, and our master bedrom/bathroom. In the ceiling, I can see some grey tubings.
The other 3 bed rooms and the living room have those traditional forced air registers.
P1120688.jpg picture by HexarAndHexanon - Photobucket
I have uploaded a new photo with this valve shown. The arrow is from the return lines to the hot supply line.
I was puzzled by this, and the ball valve was initially open, so I thought this was the problem: hot water get bypassed directed to the return line, and not pumping through zones. but the direction of this check valve proves that theory wrong.
P1120687.jpg picture by HexarAndHexanon - Photobucket
i will read more of how the system works. Thanks so much for that!
now I got it why the lower-right valve should not be closed. If it is closed, and the grey THERMOSTATIC valve is also closed, then the pump is not pumping any water.
What does that marking on the THERMOSTATIC valve used? To adjust when (At what temperature and etc.) it will open?
After reading your post a couple more times, and looking at the diagram, I think I understand it (better).
There are 3 loops in the who thing,
1. from the boiler's hot line to the furnace/air handler.
2. from the boiler's hot line to the water tank.
These two loops closed the circuit at the boiler's return line.
3. from the boiler's cooler/return line, through the by pass valve (the one I should not close), through the 3rd pump, through in-floor tubes, back to the boiler's cool/return line.
This loop will continue, and if the water temperature is lower, then that capillary tubing will sense it, and ask the THERMOSTATIC valve to open and allow some HOT water to pass through and mix with the colder water.
4. the 4th loop I guess is the expansion tank loop.
Thanks again for explain this to me, understanding the system is very important...
So, without a good way to purge the air, and if there are some air in the tubings, then am I stuck?
The valve was open, and I did not get warm floor, and the return lines are quite cold.
The vent on top of the expansion tank is broken, and the plumber is coming to replace it next Tuesday, I don't know if he can purge the air from the tubings.
One more question:
if there is a chunk of air in the in-floor tubes, will any water pass through, if everything is working as it should?
My observation is:
When the pump is working, after I turn one of the zone valve open manually, hot/warm water gets pumped into the supply pipe for that zone (I can feel it is getting warm outside), but I waited for 10 minutes, and return pipe never gets warm.
That is why I thought maybe the pump is weak and pump in the wrong direction.
Thanks again,
Hex
Ach du lieber Hex, you seem to be even more verbose than even I ! Just funnin' witchya...
I'm not gonna answer every question because it seems that you've answered a number of them yourself already...
If you face the round pump shaft with the nameplate printed, and with the control box on the top, then water flows from left to right.
Maybe, maybe not. The motor on those pumps can be rotated into four positions. The best way is to look for the arrow in the casting. Or the 'volute' on the back, for example, in this photo (sorry it's so small, it's the only one I could find showing the back of the pump!) the flow is from left to right. The water ENTERS the pump into the CENTER of the impeller, and is thrown centrifugally out the outer radius.
image courtesy nextag.com
What does that marking on the THERMOSTATIC valve used? To adjust when (At what temperature and etc.) it will open?
Yes. You would adjust that valve to obtain the temp you want in the heating loops. Depending on some installation details, you may be able to use hotter water than the previously mentioned 100-110. For now though, let's first try to get SOME heat out there! By the way, be careful not to 'kink' that tube. Are there any manufacturer or model numbers on that valve? Are the markings just numbers? or are they temperatures?
3. from the boiler's cooler/return line, through the by pass valve (the one I should not close), through the 3rd pump, through in-floor tubes, back to the boiler's cool/return line.
Yes, with a variation.
When there is a call for heat from the radiant zones, the water will circulate in that loop alone, IF the thermostatic valve is closed. In this case there will be no flow back to the boiler in that return. All the water will go round and round. When it cools, the thermostatic valve will open, and whatever flow of hot supply water there is will be balanced by cool water flowing back to the boiler in the return line.
4. the 4th loop I guess is the expansion tank loop.
While it does not exactly fit the definition, we could also call this a 'primary' loop.
So, without a good way to purge the air, and if there are some air in the tubings, then am I stuck?
I'm going to study the diagram some more. There HAS to be some combination of valven twishten und turnen that can purge the air and fill those zones.
I usually apply some zen in cases like this. Knowing that water will always flow from higher pressure to lower pressure, I 'become the water'. Thinking in this way can suggest which valves to turn and 'steer' the water where you want it to go.
if there is a chunk of air in the in-floor tubes, will any water pass through, if everything is working as it should?
Usually not. An air blockage is as good as a cork. It takes a MIGHTY pump to create the pressure needed to move air DOWN, under water. Ever try to sink a beach ball? Could you do it?
When the pump is working, after I turn one of the zone valve open manually, hot/warm water gets pumped into the supply pipe for that zone (I can feel it is getting warm outside), but I waited for 10 minutes, and return pipe never gets warm.
It is possible with an air block to observe that. When the pump runs, it will compress the air in the tubing somewhat, and some hot water will be pushed up... but not move any further.
Let me look and see if I can figure a way to purge air... if that is the problem.
There are NO other drain valves ANYWHERE on the system except for the two that are shown on the diagram?
'ang on a sec... the Lennox is actually a FURNACE? I see a gas line going in... so the coil in the furnace plenum is in ADDITION to the hot air that's generated by the burners? That's weird...
The valve on the right side of the boiler which you have labeled as 'drain'... is that the one with the handle on the top and the copper pipe leading to the plastic bowl ?
If so, technically not a drain, that's your PRESSURE RELIEF VALVE. That will open if the system pressure goes over 30 PSI.
Originally Posted by NJ Trooper
If so, technically not a drain, that's your PRESSURE RELIEF VALVE. That will open if the system pressure goes over 30 PSI.
Sorry, that is a pressure relief valve. I called it drain by mistake. There is a drain on the left side, with a round turn handle on the top, just like regular garden faucet.
Originally Posted by NJ Trooper
'ang on a sec... the Lennox is actually a FURNACE? I see a gas line going in... so the coil in the furnace plenum is in ADDITION to the hot air that's generated by the burners? That's weird...
Yes, it is a furnace. It provides heat for the other 3 bedroom, living room, kitchen and etc. Basically for the old house, the addition (mud room, sun-room, and master bedroom/bath room) is heated by floor heating AND the furnace - each room in the addition has a heat register.
So I think, maybe the previous owner did not want to replace the furnace with a more powerful one, so he added the boiler, and **I think** that coil in the furnace plenum is helping the furnace to push more heat. There are two motorized valves (same as the zone valves) that will turn on whenever the furnace is asked for heat - by the thermostat in the living room. (this is the 3rd thermostat in the house, the other two are located in the mud-room and master bed room, they control the in-floor heating)
Originally Posted by NJ Trooper
There are NO other drain valves ANYWHERE on the system except for the two that are shown on the diagram?
I looked hard, and could not find any other fittings that are not in the schematic already.
Trooper,
I am quite wordy, since I want to describe the situation thoroughly, I really want to have it solved, since winter is coming and it is not good with only a 100K BTU furnace for a 2100 sqft house... and by asking lots of questions, I can actually learn lots things.
I looked hard again, and finally found the arrow on the pump housing, and it is pointing away from the boiler, so that is GOOD.
There is no kink on the the capillary tube, and the tube is not touching any of the cooper pipes.
The valve's type AVTB, and I could not read its brand name (it is facing away, and I cannot get my big head in there.) but by googling AVTB thermostatic valve it seems it is made by Danfoss. It says its working range is 20-60C (68-140F).
You said An air blockage is as good as a cork., can I drain all the water from the in-floor pipes/tubes, so that it becomes empty, just like when it was first installed, then just push water in while have the return pipe disconnected, and once we see water coming out of the return pipe, we connect it to the system, will this work?
In other words, how did the installer fill the in-floor pipes with water for the first time after he installs all the pipes?
Or, there is no way to drain all the water from the in-floor pipes out? Does purging mean the same thing?
Or can saves method of using street water (higher pressure I assume) to push the air out?
Thanks again for all the help so far!
Hex
Trooper,
I searched some old posts, and found this one, where you gave instructions on OP's system.
200 degrees, hot supply and return pipes, but cold baseboard pipes
I have a similar drain valve (his blue valve), although they are in different locations, mine is below the pump. I don't have a shutoff valve (his yellow valve).
What is the purpose of closing the yellow valve? to prevent water going back to the boiler?
And you turn on the fast fill lever, so that city water will come in? And that water will push to the zones and have the water drain out from the blue drain valve. Is that the theory behind?
I guess my system does not have a valve to stop water flow back to the boiler.
Will this work?
Can I close all these valves (shown in the new pictures I uploaded, with yellow circles around the valve I need to close)
If I then open the drain valve (below the pump), I think the water from the in-floor pipes will drain out, and the cold water makeup will flow through the thermostatic valve to the 3rd pump.
The only catch is: will the thermostatic valve open?
schematic-s1.jpg picture by HexarAndHexanon - Photobucket
And I think I finally get the idea that the whole system is pressurized, and that is why you need the pump to circulate water.
And if I open the drain valve, I am leaking pressure, and water (along with air?) will flow because :
1. by graviety
2. pushed by higher pressure on the other side.
Learned lots of things today.
Tags: problems, grundfos, pump, boiler, heating, system, check valve, Originally Posted, expansion tank, from boiler, that valve, return line
