Friday, February 28, 2014

york-diamond-90-gas-furnace-blower-runs-no-heat

York Diamond 90 Gas Furnace - Blower runs - no heat with burner cover in place


I have a York Diamond 90 Gas furnace that was blowing continously with no heat. Following some advice from this forum, I took off the main cover, cycled the power, and observed that the initial small fan was starting, the ignitor would glow, gas would kick in for about 3-4 seconds, but no ignition would occur. It wouldn't cycle again but instead after a few minutes the main blower would come on and run continously. So I cycled the power and took off the small cover where the burners are to get a better look, cycled the power and to my surprise the cycle caused ignition as soon as the gas came on. I replaced the burner cover and the main cover and the furnace ran fine for a few minutes to bring up the temp. The next time it tried to light again, same problem and same solution, turn off power, remove burner cover, restart power and it immediatly lit and ran until the temp shut it off. Any ideas what might be going on? My intake vent seems clear (at least with outside visual inspection). Any advice would be much appreciated. Thanks. I am having the exact same problem. This appears to be a common problem with this furnace. I initially thought it was the the thermostat, but once replaced I had the same problem. Receiving ventilation-pilot turns on, furnace catches for 5 seconds then turns off. However, some times it works other times I wake up to a cold house. Please help! Sorry, I should have posted an update earlier. I finally got a local technician really experienced with York and he, working with York, decided the problem was simply that the air intake was not restrictive enough. Essentially, the intake pipe wasn't quite long enough (they recommend something like 20-25 feet minimum and mine was probably 20)and their was too much air coming in preventing the gas concentration from building up sufficiently to light. The solution was what I actually had been doing, loosen the viewport cover to let in extra air. He did it a little more elegantly by installing washers behind the screws to create a gap, but it was the same result. The other possible solutions were to drill holes in the burner box cover (didn't like that one) or add a slightly smaller diameter extension on the intake pipe to add air restriction. It is unclear why the problem arose after many years of working fine but apparently this was at least somewhat well known as a possible problem by the vendor as they suggested this solution. Since this change about 2 months now with no problem. Frankly, I don't like the solution of modifying the furnace. It should not be necessary. And I'd be very surprised if there is a 25 foot minimum length of vent pipe. A more likely cause of the problem is that the vent pipe is plugged up with a leaf that is impairing air flow to the furnace and causing the pressure switch to open, shutting off the burner. Do you have any bushes or trees near where the vent pipe terminates? The idea that there is too much air coming into the furnace is also bogus. By opening the burner compartment, you are flooding the combustion area with air ---- the furnace starts working because the pressure switch will stay closed because there is now adequate combustion air. It doesn't take much to cause a pressure switch to open --- a leaf will do it, even droplets of water condensing on the PVC pipe in cold weather can cause that in cold weather. I hear you on modifying the furnace, though given it came from York themselves, I do give it more credence. Here is one online reference to a minimum pipe length for York Furnaces: http://www.descoenergy.com/pdf/York%...%20Furnace.pdf I know it is not blocked because: 1. It was vacuumed thoroughly, twice. There are no bushes near the intake at all. 2. You can visible feel totally free air flow through the pipe with a vacuum/blower on one end and your hand over the nozzle. 3. The furnace was off all summer, and we had a summer with almost no rain, and the problem occured again first time I tried the furnace in late summer (on a warm day also) so I seriously doubt there was condensation. 4. The pressure switch was always closing correctly and staying closed. This was tested by the technician and visibly/audibly obvious because gas always flowed, the ignitor glowed just fine, it just never ignited. Opening up the chamber does allow air in, of course, but even more importantly I believe it keeps the air flow more uniform rather than one large shot from the intake blower. That is my theory at least. It is also possible the ignitor is slightly off position or something like that and the gas just wasn't making it across the chamber correctly but either way, the fix works. Originally Posted by formerag the ignitor glowed just fine, it just never ignited. All the safety switch prerequisites are met first, in order to get the ignitor to glow (including proper pressure through the switch, and also the switch has to be working in order for the glow to occur). The next stage is combustion. If no combustion; either you have a weak ignitor (yes, they can glow but still be too weak to fire up the gas), or an out of positon ignitor (from some previous install perhaps), or poor gas flow through valve, or something in the burners causing not enough gas to get to the ignitor quickly enough. (The ignitor will shut off about the same time ignition is to occur.) Open up the (big top) panel of the furnace to observe and listen. See if when the ignitor glows, that you hear a click in the gas valve. There should be this click, a split second before the ignitor shuts back down. -IF- no click (you can also FEEL for the click with your fingertips placed on the gas valve), then you MAY have bad ignition module. Let us know what you find so we can further advise. All right, I stand corrected by ecman51s comments. He's correct that the pressure switch has proved that the venting system is working and the pressure switch is staying closed. I'm not able to get the PDF on the furnace. Anyway, ecman51 has good suggestions on things to check. Same furnace, it was built in 1996. Thermostat is set at 70F. Heat comes on. Ignition light lights, burner burns, blower and fan come on. A minute later the burner turns off. The blower and the fan continue to run. Last night was a pretty cold night (Northern VA dropped to about 10F). Filter near furnace was really dusty, I had to clean some of the dust off, but didn't have a replacement filter (now I do but I am at work). It is propane ran. If you flip the power switch to the unit, it lights again, but continues the cycle posted. Taking off the burner cover doesn't seem to make a difference. It was recommended I replace the Honewell thermo (manual/mercury unit). I was going to do that when I get off work. The sensor that sits in the flame is fine. The only that that has changed with the unit is the outside temperature. Any other ideas? Originally Posted by diamond.g It was recommended I replace the Honewell thermo (manual/mercury unit). I was going to do that when I get off work. The sensor that sits in the flame is fine. The only that that has changed with the unit is the outside temperature. Any other ideas? UPDATE: House is 70єF. I got a Honeywell RTH7500D t-stat. I am going to replace the old t-stat and see if that helps the problem. It has something to do with how cold it has been getting for the past couple of days. I am hoping that the new t-stat will resolve the issue. I've been chasing the same problem as many others with a 1999 vintage York Diamond 90 heater (horizontal). I have followed some of the same advice provided by others. My system will allow blower to start, then igniter to light, then gas valve opens, and burner is ignited, the igniter is then extinguished. The main fan then starts and the entire system is “A-OKAY”. However, some time later the flame is extinguished, and the fan continue to blow cold air. The timing of this shut down varies. I have an error code of four flashes which indicates a “bad” open limit switch. Tests have confirmed the upper limit switch is bad. It allows contact at first startup but after about one minute it will open and kills the rest of the circuit. A jumper wire across the terminals (as suggested by your forum) seems to defeat this, and the system will run for a longer time - but eventually stops as described about. I have checked all of the other limit switches and they seem to function properly. I have also tried “testing” the two (pressure) switches by removing the connecting hoses – the system will immediately “flame out’. I assume this means they are working. I have tried cleaning the flame sensor. It did not appear badly coated. Perhaps I should still replace it. But the error message of four flashes still suggests the limit switch. In further reading of the forum relating to length of intake pipe, it occurs that I have been trying to run the system with the flame compartment door removed. (this allows easy sight to the burner vision glass). Could this be a problem? I am also not sure if the system is so sensitive that having blocked up one supply register could cause a problem. I also read that some felt the return air filter or other system restriction could cause a problem. I have not resolved any of these possibilities. I did order a replacement circuit panel from Source 1. However, this was not the proper White-Rogers replacement panel and I returned it immediately. I did not want the same problems as others on this forum. Unfortunately, it may still be a part of my problem. Can someone explain what the pressure switches do? Also, how can I test for water drain line blockage (could this be a part of the problem?) I don’t know what to try next. I would gladly hire any one of you who has had prior experience. However, I fear locally, I would be getting a repair person who doesn’t understand what you have all shared in your postings. If all of my limit switches (there are 3, and they do not have resets) are working or jumpered around, why am I still getting a 4 flash error message? Is it possible to still purchase the original White –Rogers circuit panel, if so from whom? What else can I try? Chilly-in-Chico Originally Posted by KMBORZAGE ... If all of my limit switches (there are 3, and they do not have resets) are working or jumpered around, why am I still getting a 4 flash error message?... Chilly-in-Chico I would caution you against operating a furnace for any length of time with any of the safety devices defeated. Sounds to me like your furnace is indeed cycling on a limit switch. The problem would not be the switch, it would be an overheating problem. This can be caused by a dirty air filter, dirty A coil (air-conditioner evaporator) or a restriction in your duct work. Is your return register blocked by a carpet or furniture? If you have checked all the above and your furnace is still locking out with a 4-flash code try kicking up your blower speed. That is assuming it is not already on high speed for heating. BTW: Here are the typical color codes for blower wiring. Black = High Speed Blue = Med High Speed Yellow = Med Low Speed Red = Low Speed White is neutral or common. Brown wires go to the capacitor. By the way looks like this is another case of more than problem on the same thread. I have some expertise with the newer York furnaces. If the original poster is still having a problem, send me a private message indicating your problem and what you have tried. I may be able to help. Originally Posted by xpogi By the way looks like this is another case of more than problem on the same thread. Yep. I'm just checking out when that happens. It's too confusing and the lack of continuity could even cause safety problems for people not getting the whole story. Originally Posted by SeattlePioneer Yep. I'm just checking out when that happens. It's too confusing and the lack of continuity could even cause safety problems for people not getting the whole story. You are absolutely right. I am sure the posters mean no harm, some boards seem to prefer fewer threads but in the case of this one some wrong (and potentially dangerous) information could be conveyed. Perhaps the moderators need to post a sticky. Originally Posted by diamond.g UPDATE: House is 70єF. I got a Honeywell RTH7500D t-stat. I am going to replace the old t-stat and see if that helps the problem. It has something to do with how cold it has been getting for the past couple of days. I am hoping that the new t-stat will resolve the issue. January must be Furnace problem month for me... Woke up to furnace blowing cool air. It was 14F outside (I really think it has something to do with the outside temp). After looking around on the forums I noticed people talking about clearing water out of some lines. Is it possible that the cold air is causing some water to freeze somewhere thereby killing the flame? I am once again at work, hopefully when I get home the heat will be back on. Okay, so my wife verified that the heat was working when she got home. This morning we woke up to the same thing. I am down near the unit I hear it turn on. Run for about 10 minutes, turn off and then repeat the cycle. So the sequence of events is as follows: -Set thermostat to 71 -fan turns on in furnace -after a minute of running the igniter lights -the burners get lit -the main blower turns on and the unit starts to (try to) heat the house -after about a minute of the flames being on the burner goes out -the blower continues to run for a while, eventually blowing cool air -blower shuts off and the cycle starts over again My main question is why does our furnace only do this when the temp is below 20єF or so. It has been working fine for the rest of winter. York Diamond 90 P2URD12N07501A Hmm it seems now it is actually trying to heat the house properly, sigh I wish I knew what was wrong with it. Diamond... No HVAC guy, but I think you are correct when you say it has something to do with outside temp. You posted that it is propane, correct? I think that may have gotten lost in all the mix of posts/problems. I'd seriously suggest you make a new post with your symptoms and what has been addressed. May also want to give size of propane tank and line feeding house or furnace. Starting a new thread is recommended, diamong g. I had the same intermittent problem. HVAC guy who fixed it said the igniter was too far from the burner and that this is a common problem after igniter replacement as people don't read the installation notes. In my previous post of 1/03/09 I express some of the same symptoms as others of you (Chilly-in-Chico). I took all of the good advice from others in this forum and learned more about my Diamond 90 system than I wanted. I eventually replaced both the flame sensor ($7) and the upper limit switch ($18), neither of which were probably responsible for my problem. I finally called my local Heating professional. For a service fee of $75 he spent about 2 hours retracing all of my own testing. In the end he suspects the problem is a poor wiring connection at the low voltage harness the attaches into the computer/circuit board. Thus far, the intermittent problem is fixed. There is more. Prior to my calling for professional help, I tried to order a new replacement for the original White-Rogers circuit board. Source1 sent a replacement that is totally different and would require understanding re-route all of the wiring. I returned it. The service pro said because the computer/circuit board is mounted directly to the fan housing there is un-dampened vibration. He believes this eventually develops into the break in the wiring harness housing. Sorry, I cannot add any details about what he actually did --- but for now it is working fine. Good luck to you all and thanks for the help! not Chilly-in-Chico Hello KNBO--- Your repairman is to be commended for his patience in tracking down the problem you describe. Bad wiring harnesses are the devil to diagnose. And $75 is a cheap fee to get that kind of problem diagnosed correctly the first time. 'Way too often a problem like that MIGHT be discovered only after several service calls and the replacement of several expensive parts--- and then the solution would often be to replace the furnace. I'm not at all sure I'd have done as well as your repairman. Was this an independent repairman or an employee in a bigger outfit? I'd be inclined to 1) keep this guys name on file and refer him out to other people who might need repairs on their furnace 2) send a note of commendation to his boss and 3) perhaps send him a gift certificate by way of saying thanks. Hi all, My problem is similar to the first problem described in this thread. York Diamond 90 furnace blowing cold air. From what can tell (see detailed description below), the burners are not getting lit, although they clearly were just a few hours ago. And I apologize in advance if I get any terminology wrong; please correct me if so. Background: I have only one gas appliance in the house: the furnace. So I bought this house in May, and just had the gas turned on last week (didn't need furnace before now!). I cannot check whether gas is still entering the house, aside from taking a look at the meter, which looks fine and is in the on position. There was obviously incoming gas this am, so I don't know what could have changed there. What is happening: This is about the third day I have used the furnace. It was blowing hot air this morning and then began blowing cold air midday. I went to the basement to watch it in action. The igniter begins to glow, glows steadily for a few seconds, then the glow goes dark slowly. It is then dark for about 25 seconds. Then the cycle repeats itself. It will continue to do this for as long as I have the thermostat set to a higher temperature than is the current temp in the house. The blower is going, as is the fan. However, I do not see any flames anywhere inside the burner box. What I have checked and tried: Vent pipes: There is no vent pipe connected to the intake; it just sucks inside air in from the basement. It is clear and I can put my hand over it and feel it sucking in air. The outgoing vent pipe looks fine; no obstructions. One post in this thread said that the air intake might need to be more restrictive. I tried restricting the flow with some thin fabric held over the intake. When I did that, the igniter turned off. So then I tried putting my hand just slightly over the intake. Again, the igniter seemed offended and turned off. Condensate pump: I don't think this is it. I installed a new condensate pump last week (the old one was falling apart), but I don't think the furnace has been operating long enough to generate enough condensate to trigger the thing. Error light: There is no error light at all. I watched it for several boring minutes. Air filter: Brand new and clean. Burner cover: I finally took off the burner cover and tried to see if the burners would ignite then. They didn't. The igniter just continued its usual 30-second on-off cycle. So.... From the other posts I have read here, it seems like there is something wrong with the igniter or with the gas supply entering the burner box. I would really like to try to fix this myself; I am fairly handy and find myself with more time than money these days (pretty common, I suppose!). What would be the best first step? Call the gas company about the possibility of poor gas flow? Replace the ignitor? Move the ignitor slightly? Do something with the burners (clean them or something)? Something else? Sorry for how long this post is and thanks in advance for your replies! I will be sure to get back instantly with answers to any questions. Trying to deal with multiple problems on the same thread rapidly becomes confusing. I'd like to suggest that you re post on a new thread. I will start a new thread right now. Thanks. Originally Posted by KMBORZAGE I've been chasing the same problem as many others with a 1999 vintage York Diamond 90 heater (horizontal). I have followed some of the same advice provided by others. My system will allow blower to start, then igniter to light, then gas valve opens, and burner is ignited, the igniter is then extinguished. The main fan then starts and the entire system is “A-OKAY”. However, some time later the flame is extinguished, and the fan continue to blow cold air. The timing of this shut down varies. I have an error code of four flashes which indicates a “bad” open limit switch. Tests have confirmed the upper limit switch is bad. It allows contact at first startup but after about one minute it will open and kills the rest of the circuit. A jumper wire across the terminals (as suggested by your forum) seems to defeat this, and the system will run for a longer time - but eventually stops as described about. I have checked all of the other limit switches and they seem to function properly. I have also tried “testing” the two (pressure) switches by removing the connecting hoses – the system will immediately “flame out’. I assume this means they are working. I have tried cleaning the flame sensor. It did not appear badly coated. Perhaps I should still replace it. But the error message of four flashes still suggests the limit switch. In further reading of the forum relating to length of intake pipe, it occurs that I have been trying to run the system with the flame compartment door removed. (this allows easy sight to the burner vision glass). Could this be a problem? I am also not sure if the system is so sensitive that having blocked up one supply register could cause a problem. I also read that some felt the return air filter or other system restriction could cause a problem. I have not resolved any of these possibilities. I did order a replacement circuit panel from Source 1. However, this was not the proper White-Rogers replacement panel and I returned it immediately. I did not want the same problems as others on this forum. Unfortunately, it may still be a part of my problem. Can someone explain what the pressure switches do? Also, how can I test for water drain line blockage (could this be a part of the problem?) I don’t know what to try next. I would gladly hire any one of you who has had prior experience. However, I fear locally, I would be getting a repair person who doesn’t understand what you have all shared in your postings. If all of my limit switches (there are 3, and they do not have resets) are working or jumpered around, why am I still getting a 4 flash error message? Is it possible to still purchase the original White –Rogers circuit panel, if so from whom? What else can I try? Chilly-in-Chico Cold in Baltimore, I have similar problems with my Diamond 90 furnace, gas fired. There are two things that I have just done to get my furnace back running. 1. I killed the power, removed the pressure switch with the 2 hoses connected and checked to see if water would drain out of the hose opening nearest the outside of the unit. A fair amount of water ran out. I did my best to removed all of the water, then reinstalled the switch. This is the second time that I have done so this heating season. I did it once last heating season too. 2. Because of #1 above, I felt that there was a condensation problem with my unit, so I removed the condensate collector part from the furnace and cleaned it thoroughly. This part is made from black plastic, is located in the bottom chamber just to the right of the control board, and has three hoses running from the upper chamber. The hoses route from the vent line, the combustion blower and the condensate chamber under the fire box. They drain out of this unit to the main condensate drain to my floor drain. I got a lot of water, sediment and mineral deposits out of it. Be sure to check the hoses to make sure that they are not clogged. My furnace is now working much better! Not Cold in Baltimore anymore. PS. I don't agree with all the talk about modifying the unit or that the inlet pipe may be the problem either. My unit has operate reliably for nine years without any inlet pipe attached. I only have an exhaust pipe on my furnace. That's how the builder installed the unit. Trying to deal with multiple problems on the same thread rapidly becomes confusing. I'd like to suggest that you re post on a new thread. Originally Posted by SeattlePioneer Trying to deal with multiple problems on the same thread rapidly becomes confusing. I'd like to suggest that you re post on a new thread. I disagree that the problem with my furnace is different than KMBORZAGES #10 thread post. My furnace was giving me a 4 flash error message just like his furnace. I have a York Gas-fired furnace Model # P3URD16N07501A. The symptoms are the same: “Both systems will allow the blower to start, then the igniter to light, then the gas valve opens, and the burner lites, the igniter is then extinguished. The main fan then starts and the entire system is “A-OKAY”. However, some time later the flame is extinguished, and the fan continues to blow cold air for awhile before it turns off. The timing of this shut down varies a bit.” I had this problem last winter and wound up calling in a heating professional. He and others I had talked with trying to get them to make a service call to my house on a Sunday suggested that the problem may be a dirty air filter, a bad thermostat, a bad control board, a clogged intake pipe or a clogged exhaust vent pipe. I paid a heating professional $75 to make a service call to my home the next morning. He eliminated the air filter, thermostat, clogged intake air pipe and exhaust air pipe as possible causes for my furnace malfunction. He didn’t think that I had a bad control board either. The mechanic removed the pressure switch for the burner box/ventor (1LP on the wiring diagram). He removed the hose on the ventor (combustion burner) side of the switch, turned it over and drained water from within this side of the pressure switch as I watched him work. He then reinstalled the pressure switch and fired up the furnace. The furnace ran as it should for the remainder of last winter. No more 4 flash error messages. Problem solved so I thought! About two weeks ago, the same problem reappeared with the furnace. So, I promptly removed the same pressure switch to check and see if there was water in the switch as last winter. Yes, it did have water in the switch, which I promptly drained. I reinstalled the switch and tested the furnace for normal operation. The furnace ran as it should. This worked for about a week and a half. Then on Sunday 01/03/10, the same problem appeared again; water in the pressure switch. I cleaned the switch again and reinstalled it and the furnace again ran as it should. Yesterday, I ran into a couple of HVAC mechanics, each with about 30 to 35 years of experience, and told them of the recurring problems with my furnace. They suggested that I check the condensate drain on my system and make sure that all the lines were clear and draining. Yesterday after work, I performed the following two things that I have just done to get my furnace back running. 1. I disconnected the power to the furnace, removed the pressure switch for the burner box and combustion blower and checked to see if water would drain out of the hose opening nearest the outside of the unit. A small amount of water ran out. I did my best to remove all of the water and then I reinstalled the switch. 2. Because I found water in the pressure switch in #1 above again, and with my discussion with the HVAC mechanics earlier in the day, I felt that there must be a condensation problem with my unit. I removed the plastic part that collects condensation from the furnace in three locations and drains it to the floor drain. This part is black in color and is located in the bottom chamber just to the right of the control board. It has three hoses running from the upper chamber. The hoses route from the exhaust vent line, the combustion blower and the condensate chamber under the fire box. They drain out of this unit to the main condensate drain and to my floor drain. I got a lot of water, sediment and mineral deposits out of this collector unit. I checked the hoses before and after this unit to make sure that they were not clogged either. My furnace is now working properly! When I got home from work today 01/05/10, I checked on the furnace and again I wanted to see if there was any water in the pressure switch for the burner box and combustion blower. When I removed the pressure switch and checked it for water inside, it was completely dry; no water. Finally, some good news! I do understand that you sometimes get some different problems listed on the same thread, but, in this case, feel that there are numerous culprits to this furnace malfunction. People need to understand that sometimes any of the parts listed above can cause their furnace to give a 4 flash error message. What fixes my furnace may not fix someone else’s. Remember to “think outside of the box” and “A parachute and a mind are only of any use if they remain open”. Not Cold in Baltimore anymore. Personally I find it distracting and difficult to try to deal with similar problems on the same thread. But if it floats your boat, help yourself. Originally Posted by SeattlePioneer Frankly, I don't like the solution of modifying the furnace. It should not be necessary. And I'd be very surprised if there is a 25 foot minimum length of vent pipe. A more likely cause of the problem is that the vent pipe is plugged up with a leaf that is impairing air flow to the furnace and causing the pressure switch to open, shutting off the burner. Do you have any bushes or trees near where the vent pipe terminates? The idea that there is too much air coming into the furnace is also bogus. By opening the burner compartment, you are flooding the combustion area with air ---- the furnace starts working because the pressure switch will stay closed because there is now adequate combustion air. It doesn't take much to cause a pressure switch to open --- a leaf will do it, even droplets of water condensing on the PVC pipe in cold weather can cause that in cold weather. SEATTLEPIONEER: Don't be hypocritical by trying to say that my comments should be in a new thread. It was your own comment in the quote above that said ...even droplets of water condensing on the PVC pipe in cold weather can cause that in cold weather. You sparked the thought for me that my furnace may have a condensation problem. By the way, taking a little time to check and ensure that there isn't a condensation problem in a furnace doesn't cost you anything more than time. No parts were replaced, only cleaned. I wonder if I am exposing a trade secret that mechanics use to charge their customers for unneeded parts, and while there, the mechanic also cleans a clogged condensate line. Have a nice day. I am a now retired Gas Fitter and Gas Appliance Repairman. I make a good many efforts to help people get their equipment repaired every day, and help people identify incompetent repairman who are wasting their money. At no charge. My experience is that this becomes difficult to do when people stack one problem on top of another. You may imagine that has advantages ----from my perspective as a skilled repairman, it does not. If you or others wish to persist in that approach though, you are certainly welcome to do so. I generally just ignore such threads if people want to go that way. My York diamond 90 also had the same issues of blowing cold air and the code of 4 red lights flashing, turned out to be the main blower motor went bad- I suspected that was the cause as I noticed the motor was making light popping noises a week prior to the actual problem occurring. replaced the original motor, which is an A.O. Smith F48P23A50 1/3 hp. 4 speed with a universal type replacement motor that requires a clamp on band (Mars 08049) to match the orig. type mounting. the new motor is also an A.O. Smith, DL 1036 1/3 hp three speed. got a new capacitor as well, a Packard POC5. If you do-it-yourself make sure to record were all the wires go before disconnecting any. (and of course- the POWER OFF.) This is not to say that what worked for me is the same problem with other furnaces with similar type issues- it did happen to get me going again though. Hello 77889900 , Your post illustrates why it's usually a waste of time or worse for people to revive old threads because they think they see a similar issue with their own furnace problems. Usually they are just guessing, and experience shows that such guesses are a waste of time. Similar symptoms can often be caused by a variety of different problems. Furthermore, it becomes hard for someone trying to provide help to keep different problem separate ---which can even be dangerous when what is happening or been checked out becomes hard to track. So the smart move is for people with a furnace problem to start a new thread and get help diagnosing the actual problem that may be causing them a problem.


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Which window for sound barrier is best

Which window for sound barrier is best


I have a 2 year old home that came with ANSI/AAMA/NWWDA 101/ I.S. 2-97 -- ASTM F588-97 Code- CPM Rating H-R35 - Series 40 Aluminum SH - MST 3870/4060 Windows. Not sure what this means but its a double pane window and they are pretty cheap quality. Anyway, I live near a Freeway and the night time noise (motorcycles whizzing by at 100MPH) is sometimes unbearable. It really affects my sleep and sometimes I can't fall asleep without sleep medicine. I want to go with a quality window that will provide sound proof and a heat barrier but I'm not sure what is best. I spoke to window salesperson and he suggested Triple Pane Krypton windows. He used a light/heat meter on the window and the window was allowing 250 BTUs to escape. They were kinda on the pricey side at $800 each installed. I have 2 windows to replace. I installed a few windows with my dad as a kid but I'm not sure if I'm skilled enough to tackle this project. Thanks for reading my post. Any insight is much appreciated. JP That's a lot of money. I've seen that light meter trick before too. The hardest part of replacing windows is the outside capping or trim. What kind of siding do you have on your house? In the meantime, call a building supply, not Home Cheapo and get the price of a similar window. I would also look into a storm window that would go on the outside of the window you're replacing. I wonder if just one window, triple pane or not, is enough to stop the noise no matter how good it is. I've got wood siding. Home depot has a deal for 3 windows for 1100 with there new home services. They are anderson windows. I'm contacting these cats tomorrow morning.....Soundproof Windows - Eliminate Your Noise Problem and Eliminates 95% noise, saves 50% - 80% energy, locks out 99% pollen, dust, dirt. Sound proof windows and Sound proof Doors solutions by Soundproof Window Treatments Don't forget that Home Cheapo uses sub contractors so check with the Dept. Of Consumer Affairs before you hire them. Showcase makes some nice vinyl windows. I hv the hurricane rated ones and they are very sound proof ! Please don't go to big box for your solution. Those are probably cheaper windows than the ones you now have. I can't even buy Andersen 400 for that price, and Andersen 200 will not be any better that what you have. My apologies to the moderators for sounding like I am picking on big box, but I am. They are selling this guy a bill of goods that is crap. JoePrivate, You have to realize that not all of the noise that you are hearing is coming through the windows. The biggest problem I see with the windows that you presently have as far as noise transmission is the aluminum frame. Go to a vinyl framed window and the noise will be greatly reduced. Triple pane Krypton is overkill for your problem, and the extra $$ this guy is talking about isn't justified. By the same token, I agree with Just Bill -- there are much better places to buy windows than a big box store, and for about 10% to 15% more money, you'll get twice the window if you go to a glass shop. That's all those guys do is glass and windows (and related products) -- THEY know what they are talking about. And Just Bill, I agree with what you are saying -- the big box store is trying to sell JoePrivate a bill of goods on this one, and what they are offering probably isn't going to make enough difference to justify the project. All people at big box stores are not the same, but then, I cared about my customers needs. I was able to get the windows a customer wanted and needed with the STC ratings required for about 10% less than other quotes. Andersen 400's with special glass in some cases, but it satisfied the city code people. About $27,000 in windows and doors if I remember correctly. Not too bad for a home that went on the market for around $750, 000. I wouldn't recommend that everyone go to a Box (since I don't work at one anymore...lol)...but they're not all bad. It all depends on the person doing the quote..IMO. Yeah...I'll brag, I was real good...most aren't! JoePrivate: I purchased two Soundproof Windows 3 months ago and be aware that their windows work great for normal car traffic sounds. However, the deep Harley/Diesel Truck sounds go right through the windows. STC ratings really only measure sound through the window at specific frequencies (like common car traffic) - I am happy with the windows but a bit surprised that their blocks 95% of noise really means only common traffic noise emanating from stock cars (not modified exhaust systems, trucks, Harleys, etc.). JoePrivate, Replacing just 2 windows is not the answer and,unless you live in an extremely cold climate, triple pane and Krypton gas are a waste of your money. Sound enters the house through everything -- windows, walls roof, doors, ... Window replacement goes a lot way towards reducing that sound as long as you do ALL of them. Replacing just two windows will make the room(s) that they are in slightly quieter, but you'll still get sound coming through all of the other windows, so it wouldn't make that big of a difference. And replacing ALL of the windows is going to have an impact on your utility bill that you will be very happy with. And it appears as though there is an income tax credit available on your Federal Income Taxes as well for making energy efficency improvemnets to your home. And there could be rebates available from your local utility company or companies. I use EPI windows a lot. They are in the same price and quality range of Simington, Alside, etc. ALWAYS low-E glass. What brand you opt for will depend mostly on what's available where you're at. Vinyl and fiberglass framed windows will do the most for you as far as reducing sound. Wood framed does about as well, but they come with a lot of maintenance. There are good brands out there that that don't cost an arm and a leg. Get out of the big box stores and go shopping!








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well-pump-problem-foot-valve-or-blader-tank

Well pump problem... foot valve or blader tank?


I've been reading old posts here for the last couple of weeks, and I think you all ahve helped me solve my problem. Before I go spend a couple hundred dolars I'd like to check my work with you if you don't mind. I have a 27-year-old drilled well. My neighbor thinks it goes down about 75 feet, but I don't know. The water level is less than 8 feet from the ground. In my basement there is a 10-year-old Sta-Rite/Con-Aire 19 gal(?) bladder tank with a shallow well pump on top. The pump used to be a 5/8hp at 30/50 or 40/60, but two or three years ago it died and I replaced it with a 1hp Craftsman pump with a 40/60 switch running closer to 44/78. I've always called it a jet pump but there is only one line going from the well to the pump so I think this is techically incorrect. A few weeks ago we started having intermittent water supply problems, including a slapping sound in the pump as it came on and tried to get water moving (this is cavitation?). Air came out of our faucets along with sediment (looked like rust) in the water. A well contractor suggested (over the phone) changing the foot valve due to age and because it's a common cause of cavitation problems. I told him the well side of the pump had water (there is a check cp near the pump intake) but he said it doesn't take much and suggested that even though I couldn't see any loss of prime, there could be a slow foot valve leak... I am willing to change the foot valve, but if I have to I'll have some questions first. Before going there, however, I checked the pump prime (OK), drained and precharged the tank (it was in the mid-20s so I added nearly 20psi to get close to my 44psi cut-in), reconfirmed there was water in the supply line (there has been water there all along). After that nothing changed, so I drained and re-primed the pump and poured water into the line from the well both inside the house and out at the well head (through the vent -- is that OK?), just to be sure. Still no change. At this point I feel that I've ruled out any but the slowest foot valve leak and the pump is not losing its prime. However, I noticed that after draining and recharging the bladder tank things got worse, especially the slapping sound when the pump comes on. The pump bucks and jumps, and the pressure gauge just waves back and forth between 40 and 60 or so while the pump runs continuously. If a tub faucet is running the whole system can lose pressure and the pump does not seem to be able to recover. It ends up around 20psi at the pump and the plumbing pipes deliver a trickle if anything. If I shut the pump down and close the valve between the system and the bladder tank, the pump can re-pressurize the plumbing pipes as if everything were normal. Today, from a fresh start, if I close the valve leading to the air/water tank, effectively eliminating it from the system, everything seems to work fine. The pump comes on and runs continuously when we use water, but it does not have the slapping problem and it is able to move enough water to keep up with the demand. The pressure gauge hangs around 75psi while the water is running and settles in the mid- or upper-60s after we turn the water off. If I open the valve to the bladder tank -- slightly -- I can hear it filling with water, and the pump is able to fill it as long as I keep the flow rate low. Then we can run tap or tub water and delivery is smooth until we get down to the pump's cut-in pressure. At that point if I've left that valve open the pump will slap and buck when it starts up again, and we are back where we started. Does this make sense? Right now I have left it set up with the valve closed and the system works fine -- the pump is just running more than one would like, and there is some surging at the faucets when it kicks on. But as long as the bladder tank is cut off from the pump and plumbing system, everything seems to work OK. Is it time to replace this tank? Is the same tank OK (around $150, I think)? Sorry about the long post, and thanks in advance for any replies. at least 75% of what I've done so far has been based on ideas from this site. I can't thank you all enough. There is no way I could afford to have someone come in and take care of this for me. You have a shallow well jet pump. If there is 2 lines from well to pump it is a deep well jet pump. The first thing I would do is replace the pressure gauge, or at least connect another one to a nearby hose bibb, and confirm your pressure. I don't believe a Sears jet pump will have the capabilities to reach 78 psi. Once I ascertained the pressure range that the pump is operating at, I would set the tank precharge at 2 psi less than pump cutin pressure. This is done by turning off power to the pump and completely draining the tank. If the tank won't drain completely, or water comes out of the air valve, the tank is probably bad. Ron No water comes out of the Schrader valve on the tank, and the tank does seem to drain completely. I will pick up a new pressure gauge on my way home today and hold off on the tank for now. If it matters: when the system is fully charged the Schrader valve on the tank reads roughly 10psi less than the pressure gauge on the pump. The pressure you see at the Schraeder valve is probably a truer reading than the gauge. Not all pressure measuring devices are accurate, but there shouldn't be more than a couple of pounds difference between the tank and the gauge. Ron I picked up a new pressure gauge and put it on the pump. The tank readings were indeed accurate, and my pump gauge was off by at least 10psi. As a result the pump was set to kick on closer to 30psi than 44, which was actually much lower than the air precharge in the tank. I drained the tank, set the precharge at 38psi, and adjusted the pressure switch to cut in at 40 and out at 63-64. Now the system seems to work OK with the tank included, but I'm guessing there is still some air in the works, as the pump sometimes misses when engaging or even while pumping. Not constantly -- maybe once every other cycle -- just enough to tell me I'm not finished. If I shut the power off and then back on it tends to engage just fine. What should my next step be? I assume I haven't solved the original problem yet since the whole system ran fine for three years up until a few weeks ago -- something introduced air into the lines, but what? One other thing I've noticed is that after the pump shuts off around 63psi the gauge reading settles back to 59-60 slowly. This takes maybe 20-30 seconds. Is that just a function of the water in the house pipes farther from the pump finding its level/achieving equilibrium? After getting the tank precharge and the pressure switch settings straightened out yesterday, I replaced the foot valve in my well this afternoon. Everything is working perfectly. Thanks for the help. Glad it's all straightened out. Check the precharge every few months to keep it working well. Ron








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vinyl-shutter-replacement

Vinyl Shutter Replacement


I want to repaint my vinyl shutters and would like to remove them so I can prime and repaint on the ground. My shutters are attached with shutter locks and I found that I need to cut them to remove the shutters. Any ideas reattach the shutters with new shutter loks? Can I just re-drill the old hole to remove the old lock? Any other ideas? By shutter locks I am assuming you are talking about the reverse barbed button lock. Once you have removed the shutters, pull out the barbed part with a pair of pliers. Look in the wierd screw section of your hardware store or big box store. There are 1/4 x 3 long primed screws with an allen head insert. These are great for reinstalling the vinyl shutters. If the barb doesn't come out, no big deal, just re-drill the hole with a 3/16 bit down the middle of the plastic and install the screw. One word of caution, take a magic marker with you when you remove the shutters, and mark them with a sequence you can remember on the back side so you can reinstall them in the same place. As good as the installers were, they did not drill all of them in the same place. although this is not my post, I do want to ask if the reverse barb button lock you are talking about is plastic? The shutter locks on our shutters are nothing but large plastic screws. Are you saying yank the entire shutter away from the house? If so, isn't that going to damage the plastic shutter locks and the vinyl? We took our shutters off last summer to paint them. The only way we could figure get them off was to reach in behind the shutter and snip the head off of each lock, so we could not use them again. We ordered new shutter locks, but we had a heck of a time trying to get those things in!!! We only got 2 shutters up correctly where the locks went in all the way. The others have locks partially hanging out. I guess if I want them put up right, I may as well call someone who specializes in vinyl siding. Cut the shutter lock, behind the shutter to remove. If they were installed in to plywood, just push the piece in the wood into the wall, so you not have a hold to install your new shutter locks. If they are installed into brick or something similar, it gets to be a PITA and here's how I did them. After pulling the shutter off, I had to figure out get the rest of it out of the hole. What I did was to take a very thin drill bit and drill a hole in the center. Then, I screwed a screw into it, so I had something to grab on to to pull it out. When i went to reinstall, that's when I ran into a problem. The problem was that the hole got reamed out when I pulled the piece of shutter lock out. It wouldn't hold a new one, so here's what I did. I took some wood filler, that was suppose to be good for exterior usage. I then filled the hole in. After letting it set over night, I drilled the hole back out. This leave just enough filler still in there to make a tight fit. And they will hold. I've got high winds here and I haven't had a single problem with them. Good Luck!! Depending on the backing (OSB, etc.) I have had pretty good success after removing the barbs (which suck at best), by using large head #10 screws then painting the heads. These screws aren't located in the regular screw aisle, but if you are in one of the big box stores, look for the drawers of miscellaneous pins, screws, delrins, etc. You will find them in there. If your backing is brick, etc. then I do like joe and lay in some two part epoxy in the hole, then insert the screw, holding it long enough for it to cure ( a couple of minutes) . One word of caution, number your shutters when you take them down, so you can put them back up in the same order. Some installers arbitrarily drill their holes, and they may not all be in the same place. We re-numbered the shutters when we took them down to paint them. Our house is vinyl sided over wood. No brick here. Did you prime those #10 screws before painting to match the shutters? Actually, yes, and took a shutter with me to the paint store and had the color matched to a quart of paint to paint the heads (you won't have to do that, of course if you are painting the shutters in the first place, obviously) after installation and touch up any boogers on the shutters. My neighbor and I were both about to paint our plastic shutters and we had a conversation on this subject. This led to a Google search and thus finding this thread. Where do you find the replacement shutter locks? I went to the local Big Name Hardware store (don't know if I am allowed to say the name) and they did not have them. Do I have to order them some where? All help is greatly appreciated. The big orange store will have them in the specialty nut bolt section. You know, the one with the drawers. They are hex driven with a flat head about 3/4 round and have threads, and are about 3 long. Be sure to get an allen wrench for installation, you'll need one. guys, ya'll are complicating this. You can use exterior screws. Cut the lock off flush with the wall behind the shutter, and the remaining part acts as an anchor. I dont use locks, but i keep the ones that come with new shutters to use as anchors. Only problem with screws, the head may pull through the vinyl in a strong wind. That is why I use the larger headed screws. And, yes, the original stub can be used as a holder. And welcome to the forums, Carolina Junkma, hope to hear from you more. Where do you find the replacement shutter locks? I went to the local Big Name Hardware store (don't know if I am allowed to say the name) and they did not have them. Do I have to order them some where? All help is greatly appreciated.[/QUOTE] WV Mountaineer, if you want the original plastic shutter locks that are made specifically for hanging shutters, the big orange store does have them in stock where you find the shutters. At the other big name hardware store, you have to special order them. Hope this helps. You can get the barbed shutter locks at HD. GO to the millwork department and they sell them by the bag. They should also already have the colors in their paint computer. Have them look under the EMCO colors. They are the same as the ones for the Anderson(EMCO) storm doors. A word of caution to anyone chiseling off Shutter-Loks: Wasps often live behind shutters. You don't want to be swatting them off of yourself with a chisel in your hand. Trust me on this. Wear protective clothing - and drop the chisel if necessary! Don't I know that! I think there was a nest behind every shutter we took down last year when we painted. Of course we removed all of the nests without getting stung. Somehow these wasps are making their way inside our house through our vinyl replacement windows. I don't know where to look for any little places that they may be coming in. The screens aren't torn either. I even find them between the outside screen and window when the window is closed. We usually have our bedroom window open at night in the summer. One night there was something crawling on me. I turned on the light and sure enought, it was a wasp I purchased an old house (1929) that we are in the process of restoring. ( a 3 year process). We want to put in shutters in the living room dining room. We had the floors restained to a dark chocolate, Kitchen cabinets in a dark redwood chocolate, interior doors to a dark chocolate, all the window blinds are done in the dark chocolate stained color in the rest of the house. Now, the living dining room still have the dark floors and all the windows have the white thick molding trim around the windows and floors (just like the other windows). Can I go the dark chocolate shutters in the living dinning rooms or should I go white shutters. (These rooms are too small to go curtins). My gut tells me white shutters; however, the entire house is done with the dark wood. Do you need a picture? L.A. Originally Posted by LAOReilly all the windows have the white thick molding trim around the windows and floors (just like the other windows). You say the entire house is done in dark wood. Yet you also mentioned all the windows and baseboard? are white. If that's the case I think the shutters should also be white, just like the window trim. I agree with the white on the shutters. You will tire too easily from the too dark color that exists. The white will give your eyes a break.








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Troy bilt 5550 generator 01919 not starting

Troy Bilt 5550 Generator 01919 not starting


I've got a Troy-Bilt generator model 01919 with a Briggs and Stratton engine model 204412. It was given to me a couple of years ago and has worked well and even provided my family power for 11 days this past winter during an ice storm. A couple weeks ago I decided to fire it up to make sure everything was working. I now can't get it to start. I can pull the starter rope until my arm falls off and it won't even act like it is trying to start. However, if I spray some starter fluid in the carb it runs briefly. I checked and replaced the plug...still nothing. I thought that it might be the oil sensor so I bought a new one and replaced it...no change. One thing I have noticed is that the on/off switch if I unplug the ground with it in the On position and spray starter fluid..it runs briefly. If I leave all three wires plugged in and in the On position and spray starter fluid it doesn't even try to run. Of course, I have plugged and unplugged the wires so much I think I have confused myself where they actually go...I assume from left to right..red, black, white. Hope that is right. I'm now thinking if it isn't somehow related to the On/Off switch then I have some gummed up carbs that isn't allowing any gas through....would this be a wrong assumption? Sorry for rambling...that's kinda how my diagnostic skills go also. Any help would be appreciated. I think your right with the idea of the gummed up carb.. Running it on starter fluid tells us you have spark compression,, the only thing missing is fuel... It may be time to pull the carb apart kit it,, but before you do,, make sure you have fuel flowing to the carb the fuel isn't shut off,, ask me how I learned about the little fuel tap when your trying to start the snowblower in a snowstorm....LOL,,, Can't help with the switch tho,, sorry, but the Pros will be here soon... Can you figgure it out with an ohmmeter??? Roger








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Toilet paper and septic tank

Toilet Paper and Septic Tank


We have septic tanks and want to know which toilet paper is the best for septic tanks. Used to be a die hard Charmin user till we had the tanks pumped the first time. Switched to Northern after that and now were told that wasn't good either. Any suggestions would be appreciated! I have seen it listed on packages that the brand is safe for standard septic and sewer systems. Not sure what that exactly means. I have never worried about the brand. I am more careful about oil, grease and strong chemicals in the septic. I realize that you cannot totally remove these things from the system, but, you can limit the introduction to the system. Septic systems work with bacteria that eat whatever goes to the tank. I am careful to not put things into the tank that will kill the bacteria. I use enzyme drain cleaners when I HAVE to use one. I have had 2 septic systems over the last 20 years and have had no problems. Never pumped either (which I am NOT recommending). They should be pumped every few years. Good luck. a neighbor of mine is a septic contractor and says the same things dragon mentioned. he also said the tank shoud be pumped every five years minimum. hi doesn't charge me so i know it's not a sales pitch. say's the build up of solids and unavoidable grease are the reason. I having my tank pumped tomorrow. The last time was four years ago. At that time the pumper guy said that Charmin was the worst for a septic tank because it just doesn't break down. I'm having problems now with my washer backing up. I'll check in tomorrow with the prognosis. Hopefully, it is because the tank is full and the field can't handle the large amount of water the washer pumps into it. ghdflowerpower, Washing machine waste contains a lot of lint. The lint, plus the soap residue causes many drain line clogs. If you find out that the problem is not the drainfield, try an exzyme drain cleaner such as Draincare. The bacteria cling to organic clogs and eat them in much the same way the septic works. It is safe for septic systems. Takes overnight but does work. Follow label directions including using hot water. Good luck. We went through the county and got permits for the job two years ago. The guy that did the job was recommended by the county agent. My biggest fear is that the washer water is filling up the septic tank and letting toilet paper and other floaties into the drainfield. Is this possible? We have been bad about putting additives into the system. I will go out and buy some ASAP. Thanks. if yoru finger goes through it, its good for the tank..lol Hey Majakdragon, The septic tank was pumped and it wasn't as bad as I thought. So, like you said, the washer drain pipe must be clogged with lint and such. Now I'm treating the drain pipe for the washer with an enzyme cleaner that I had already called Drain Care. Today is the 4th day of tx and it is a little better. Is there a better way to put this stuff in besides the pipe where the washer discharges? Thanks If it is only the washer drain that is causing the problem, thats what you want to clean out. All of your pipes are basically connected together and exit the house via the main line. I think going through the washer drain is the best way to correct the problem. It will not hurt anything if you treat more than one pipe with the Drain care. If you know the location of the main going to the septic, treat the fixture AFTER the washer drain (going away from the main drain) try using cottenlle, it breaks apart fast, we have been using it for about ten years, and have only had our tank pumped once. Originally Posted by monikki We have septic tanks and want to know which toilet paper is the best for septic tanks. Used to be a die hard Charmin user till we had the tanks pumped the first time. Switched to Northern after that and now were told that wasn't good either. Any suggestions would be appreciated! In the classes I have taken on on-site septic systems the instructor has said that white paper breaks down. Do not use the pretty colored stuff. My wife came from the farm, there they don't flush the paper down, it goes into a separate garbage can that is emptied regularly. I tried the wife's method and it took awhile to get used to but our tank has no scum on top and very little sludge on the bottom. When I was single my tank had enough scum on top that you could walk on it, never did try that though. Also we don't put any food scraps into the system, the plates are scraped clean. If you are having an excessive build up of scum or sludge you might need a larger tank.








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Taco zone valve wiring

Taco zone valve wiring


First post, new to the forums. Im trying to add two Taco 571 zone valves to my baseboard hot water system. My set up is this: a Slant/fin Sentry 105K BTU gas fired furnace with electronic ignition and a Taco circulating pump suppling both my basement and first (and only) floor. The only thermostat is upstairs. I have the two Taco 571 zone valves and another thermostat ready for install. One question I have is, where should I place the zone valves. ie. on the supply to or the return from the zone in question. Also do I need an external 24V transformer or can I take a 24V feed from my boiler? Last but certainly not least is a wiring diagram. I need to figure out the wiring scheme to get everything up and running before it gets too cold. Any help would be appreciated. Thank you. I suggest putting them on the side opposite the circulator. If the circ is on the supply put the valves on the return. If it is on the return, put them on the supply. Depending on the aquastat you have, you may or may not need a second transformer. In most cases, yes. There should be wiring diagrams on or in the zone valve box but if not, you can go to: http://www.taco-hvac.com for them. Ill let you know how it all turns out. Thanks Grady Please do let me know how things go. Grady, All went well. I now have to seperate zones that work flawlessly. Just to let you know I did go with an external transformer and it was actually quite simple to hook up. All told I saved over $400 by doing it myself and it took about 3 hours of my time. Thanks to you Grady and the forums for the help. Glad to hear all went well in only 3 hours. Want a job? LOL I noticed that after my zone valves close the circulating pump contnues to run for a while. Is this bad for the pump due to the fact that it is trying to pump hot water with no where to go? Before I added the zones I had an open loop so water would continue to circulate throught the system until the pump shut off. Any comments appreciated. The zone valves you added are heat motor zone valves, and the end switch which closes the circuit to the circulator is dependent on the position of the valve. From what I have seen with my valves, which are also heat motor, though not Taco, is that the end switch is closed, meaning the circulator is running, during almost all of the valve's travel. So it's not until it gets pretty close to fully closed that the circulator would shut off. This may take several minutes from the time the thermostat is satisfied until the valve fully closes. Is this what you are seeing? Or has it been 10 minutes since the valve closed and the circulator is still running? More like the ten minutes. Also the inital post is misleading. I was initaly going to use Taco valves but I used Honeywells instead. What you are experiencing is very unusual for Honeywell valves. Normally the circulator will shut off before the vavle fully closes. I suggest you check your wiring.








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Staining or painting trex

Staining or Painting Trex


Hi - Our deck is almost 6-years old, and the contractor who built it suggested we use Trex as a cost alternative. Since that time (and two claims which were denied to us by Trex) the company has discontinued the color (Natural) we have because the mold was too visible. Maybe it's the vintage we have, but it is truly awful stuff, in our opinion, and we are very unhappy with the the product and the company that puts it out. We would like to know if anyone has any experience with painting or staining Trex. I will do it in a heartbeat if it's worth the trouble just to make it look a little nicer. Thanks - Dave Hi, Go to this page, it's from Trex on painting or staining their product: http://www.trex.com/technicalinfo/painting.aspx Can't the mold/mildew be washed off? I've never stained/painted any trex but I'm sure a sastifactory job can be had. The only downside would be it would need recoating and certain intervals to keep it looking nice. Whenever I have any questions about painting a substrate I've never painted before I ask the paint rep at the store - a real paint store, not dept. They should be able to advise you as to the best coatings for both your deck and desired result. Thanks very much for the info - Dave Hi, Marksdr - The mold can be washed off, yes, but the Trex itself is just a gawd-awful color. The mold is better since I pulled up all the boards and re-gapped them. Now, the deck can drain off water. According to Trex, the contractor did not install the boards correctly (he gapped at 3/16, they specified 1/4). In any case, after a coupled of years, some of the boards had swelled so much that they were pushing against each other and lifting. Whenever I hear someone is putting in a deck, my immediate response is Don't use Trex if you know what's good for you. Thanks - Dave Dave, I've been dealing with Trex warranty issues for the past 3 or 4 years. When was the last time you talked to Trex about replacing the decking? Yes, Natural had a HUGE problem with spotting. It's not mold -- it's tannin acid that is causing the spots to appear. That color has long since been discontinued, for just that reason. Since your deck is Natural, a 3/16 gap was fine when it was installed. The spacers they gave us 5 years ago gave us the choice between 1/8 and 3/16. The ones we have now are either 1/4 of 3/8. PM me -- I'll put you in touch with a rep at Trex and you WILL get the decking replaced. Hi, Lefty - Thanks for the offer, but really I'm not expecting one bit of help from the people at Trex. The last time we contacted Trex (the second time) was October 2006. This was regarding the swelling of the boards. The deck wasn't draining, and all the gaps had closed. I looked at the letter I sent to Trex after contacting the guy who put it in. He told me he gapped it at 3/16th of an inch, and Trex told me the guy did it wrong, and they were not going to help me. So, at the beginning of last summer, thinking that because the deck wasn't draining it was contributing to the mold problem, I pulled up all the boards and laid them back down, with a 1/4-inch gap. This was when I found out the color had been discontinued, because I needed more boards. Some were finally found about an hour from me at a lumber yard (actually Trex DID help me find them, so they actually did something for me). By the way, the stuff still looks like crap, that's why I'm thinking about staining it. Do you need my email address, or can you put me in touch with Trex through this forum? Thanks again - Dave Paint tends not to hold up well on horizontal surfaces. Deck stains and sealants tend to be preferred. As I recall past discussions, Cabot's and Sikkens' were most favored here. I kind of knew ahead of time it would have to be a solid stain, but asking about paint was so I didn't limit anything. Also, I didn't think a semi-transparent stain would work in this case, because we are trying to cover up the real ugliness of the Trex. Thanks. Dave, I PM'ed you. Scroll to the VERY TOP of the forum and on the right side you'll see Welcome dbruno. Right under that you will see that you have one unread Private Msg. Click on that and you'll be able to read it. Lefty Originally Posted by lefty Dave, I PM'ed you. Scroll to the VERY TOP of the forum and on the right side you'll see Welcome dbruno. Right under that you will see that you have one unread Private Msg. Click on that and you'll be able to read it. Lefty Could you please share the same information with me. Trex sent someone out who took pictures and measurements for over an hour months ago -- no word since. Thank you jmomrb, Welcome to DoItYourelf.com and the Deck forum. If somebody came out and measured and got pictures of your deck you should have a Trex claim number (TX-...) Have that with you and call Trex at 1-800-BUY-TREX (289-8739). Ask to check the status of your claim. I have had Trex deny a couple initially for whatever reason. I just had to explain the details they were unclear about and the claims got approved. I have yet to have one totally denied. Thanks, Lefty, for the other contact at Trex. I got a quick email from her, telling me she would pass it along to Customer Service. But, I'm not expecting anything from them, and will probably go ahead with staining the deck. I am worried however, that if I stain the deck and then Trex decides to come out (ha ha), absolutely nothing would happen, because now I've changed the material. Dave Originally Posted by lefty jmomrb, Welcome to DoItYourelf.com and the Deck forum. If somebody came out and measured and got pictures of your deck you should have a Trex claim number (TX-...) Have that with you and call Trex at 1-800-BUY-TREX (289-8739). Ask to check the status of your claim. I have had Trex deny a couple initially for whatever reason. I just had to explain the details they were unclear about and the claims got approved. I have yet to have one totally denied. I just installed a brand new deck with trex and the color has faded / stained horribly in just 4 months - installed 6-1-08. Do you have any suggestions. It looks so bad I plan to stain it but am livid that I have to do this so soon after installation when the reason I choose this material was the color lack of maintenance....very ironic. Any advice appreciated. Marshall mlongtin, Welcome to the forums Marshall. Slow down a minute. Are you complaining about the Trex fading, or about it staining? What color did you install? Trex has spent literally 10's of millions of dollars to show what their product will look like about 12 to 16 weeks after it is installed because they KNOW it will fade. You're retailer (if you installed it yourself) or your contractor (if it was installed by a pro) should have made you aware of that, and should have sold it based on the color it BECOMES, NOT based upon what it looks like when initially installed. STAINING is a whole other issue, and I'm in the middle of dealing with several of the decks that I have installed where the customer is complaining about it staining. If that's is your complaint, PM me. (Click on my name and send Lefty a Personal Message.) Then we can exchange e-mails and I'll see if I can get you hooked up with a Trex rep. in the Seattle area. Hi, Lefty and Everyone Else - Once again, Lefty, I say many thanks for trying to help me. The first rep you put me in contact with left the company shortly before I sent her an email (I think we discussed this privately). The second rep was very helpful, at first, saying she would have the Warranty Dept. review my situation. When no response came after a couple of months, I sent another email to the rep, who said she couldn't understand why they hadn't contacted me, and told me she would take care of it right away. She did, but what came in her next email was another Customer-Concern Packet, and was basically the same old stuff that I had filled out the previous two times I sent a complaint in, but this time it was much more in detail. I threw it in the email trash bin. I'm done with them. I never did get around to staining the deck, but washed it a couple of times and lived with it. I did get a chance to stain a spare piece, and it really didn't look so hot, but admittedly I did not give it a second coat. Maybe next summer. But, to everyone looking to use Trex, I still stand by my original phrase: Don't use Trex if you know what's good for you. Dave Dave and Marshall, Trex may or may not be stainable, depending on what you use for stain. A transparent stain won't work. Trex is 50% plastic, and plastic doesn't take stain. A solid stain may or may not work, again because of Trex being 50% plastic. Paint will cover it, because paint basically sticks to the surface with very little penetration into the material that you are putting it on. Dealing with Trex has become increasingly difficult over the past 6 months to a year. I've noticed a lot of empolyee turnover with them. A latex solid stain [especially if emulsa bond is added] should adhere fine to the Trex...... but once you start applying a coating - you'll need to repaint as it wears away from traffic or weather. I use a high concentration of bleach (direct out of the Clorox jug) and a 'scrub brush on a stick'. After trying a series of other deck cleaners this was the most effect and cheapest. I have to do this at least twice a year or it looks like a leopard. We also have some boards that are just discolored since the beginning and look different than the rest - I have no solution for that issue. I echo all the comments above about on how unsatisfactory the material is and how ironic the no maintenance claims have been. Very unhappy. If any one has more on best staining options please contribute. BTW we have a (no) gap issue since the installer was used to wood shrinking. It seems that the only option pull them up. If we take these darn boards off I am not putting them back I will use wood. Is there anything cleaver that could be *safely* done with a saw or is that just crazy? dgorman, Welcome to the forums. Trex has had problems for several years, and the spotting that you are talking about was one of their first. That was most common on their Natural color, which has long since been discontinued. I have seen Trex that has been painted and it seems to be holding up fairly well, without the spotting problems, and it seems to eliminte the 'disintegration' issue as well. The lack of a gap could lead to other problems -- mainly disintegration of the deck boards. The saw kerf idea would work as far as giving you the gap, but doing it with a Skil saw will make an ugly mess. I doubt that you can get a REALLY straight line with a Skil saw. I can occasionally, but I go through about 150 blades a year and a Skil saw every 3 or 4 years. I know this thread is a little old, but I thought I'd chime in here. I had a 20 x 24 Trex deck installed on my newly built house 11 years ago. Like everyone else is saying, it's a mess with the horrid, black spots. (I think it was the Natural color.) I've tried everything...Deck Cleaner, Corte-Clean, power washing and straight bleach. Nothing gets rid of the spots. There is absolutely no gap between boards now, and I'm sure that's contributed to the problem. Water just stands in some spots. Ultimately I know I'll have to replace it, but if I could get it to last a few more years with looking like total crap, I'd like to do that. Since these discussions, has anyone actually tried staining their decks? Thanks. Jane Hi - I know this helps very little, but it does make me feel better that I am not the only one having problems with Trex. I haven't done anything with my deck in a year, but now it's time to at least clean it, as it really looks pretty lousy. My hope was to replace the Trex with something else, but now with two kids in college I don't think I can handle the expense. I would still be interested in hearing from anyone who has painted or stained their Trex deck with even moderate success. Dave I've got the same moldy spots on my deck. The first year it was not visible although the color did fade a bit. I used Cayenne for my color choice. The second year the deck was covered in black spots. I used a deck wash (essentially bleach water) and this did a great job of eliminating the spots. Unfortunately it also faded the color drastically. The deck looked decent for the rest of that year but the following year, of course, the spots returned. No surprise there. I know gapping isn't an issue as I used their proprietary invisible clips that gap it correctly. Not willing to fade my deck more, I just let the mess be. The color of the deck is still fading but the deck railing and balusters are essentially still original color. That is one helluva look! Really sad after being brainwashed that these decks were basically everlasting with little maintenance. Very pricey, too. Still beats getting splinters off cedar, though. I just joined do it yourself. I am fasciated at the comments regarding the Trex product. We installed Trex (natural) almost 13 years ago to our back deck including the balisters and railings. We have had a terrible time trying to keep it clean with constant black spotting and mold problems. I have cleaned it twice a summer with deck cleaners and finally had to resort to straight bleach to get it to look 70% better. We have been very unhappy with the product. Our contractor used the metal brackets Trex sold to place the boards. 98% of the boards are swollen tight to each other, some buckled and the deck holds water on the top of the surface. Several years later we added a gazebo with a bridge that connects it to the main deck. We purchased what a Trex rep. said was the color we had used. It was installed on the 25 ft bridge and was a much darker color of grey or natural. Trex said it would fade to match the natural we had on the main deck. It has been down for at least 10 years and is still the dark grey color it was the day they laid it. We are elderly and find this to be a sad situation. We are not able to afford to replace the deck and are afraid to paint it fearing it will look even worse than the ugly black spotting. Can you please offer any suggestions for us. We were so pleased to choose Trex as we needed a maintenance free product and we thought that's what we purchased in selecting Trex. My husband is disabled and it leaves the horrible cleaning attempts to me and I am weary with it. Thank you so much for any help you can suggest. Hi, dgorman - I'm responding to your post at this time because I just saw that a new post came on the thread about Trex. You wondered how ironic the no-maintenance claims have been. Not sure if I posted this in my original, but Trex Customer Service is probably the worst I've ever dealt with. Unlike most other companies that sell this type of product, getting a rep from Trex to come and look at a problem must be like moving heaven and earth. I gave up after two tries: the first claim, one I submitted because of the spots from mold and tannin bleeds, they sent me a special cleaning kit. The second claim, the one for the boards swelling and trapping the water, they blamed the contractor for gapping the boards at 3/16 instead of 1/4, and the claim was denied. I gave up after that. Hi, Sweetshot - Just saw your post and unfortunately all I can tell you is I feel your pain. I have yet to try staining or painting my Trex, because the process will be a long one that will probably require at least 3-4 days in a row with no rain - a good cleaning followed by a drying-out period, then staining and hoping for a rain-day or two after that. I may try=this summer, but I live in the northeast, so getting a number of dry days in a row is hit or miss. Sweetshot, Welcome to the forums. You are probably not going to have very much success getting Trex to do much about your deck. They went through a period several years ago where they were providing the material along with paying for the labor, fasteners and disposal of defective decking. but that was done because of a class action suit filed against them, and it nearly bankrupted them. painting it may be an option, but like dbruno said, wait for the weather to permit. It needs to dry thoroughly before you start (at least a couple of weeks of warm, dry weather) and stay dry for several days after you finish. When your deck was installed (around 2000), the gapping that Trex recommended was 3/16 -- plus or minus depending on the temp. when it was installed. There were two spacers that Trex provided us with at that time. One was 1/8 and 3/16 and the other was 3/16 and 1/4. Since then they have come to realize that it needs more gap. The spacers we get now are larger (1/4 and up.) Several friends/acquaintences who make their living building decks have vowed never to use Trex again. Same problems as posted here, if not worse. Unhappy clients and poor product performance are never good for a small-time contractor trying to eke out a living. TimberTech is a better product (according to my sources in the business), and customer service by the manufacturer is taken seriously the few times it's needed. A few years ago, I was surprised at how lousy the Trex deck looked that I helped install close to 10 years earlier--really shabby-looking. Natural color faded out to almost white, and many of the planks were swelled out of shape as well. So much for the 25-year warranty.








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Shower hosehead attachment for old tub

shower hose/head attachment for old tub


I've got an old tub that doesn't have a shower head. It only has a faucet for water. I'm trying to hook up a shower hose head (standard 1/2 hose) by attaching it to the faucet. The aerator is a male 15/16-27. I went to all the local hardware stores and they tell me that a male/male 15/16-27 to 1/2 adapter does not exist. I'm going crazy trying to find some way to do this. Can anyone give me a link for an adapter that would work for me? Or is there any alternate way of doing this? One person at Lowe's set me up with some franken-show adapter consisting of a 15/-16 snap fitting going to a rubber adapter to a 1/2 male adapter, all tied down with clamps. This lasted for 1 use before the rubber adapter ruptured and sprayed water every. HALP! Thanks. http://www.plumbingsupply.com/add_a_showers.html








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Scorpion prevention help

Scorpion Prevention Help


I just moved to AZ and my new neighbor has told me he found a scorpion in his bed!!!! ARGGHHH!! I am all ready treating for crickets (which grow big here) but please, what else can I do to prevent getting them, especially indoors! And what should I do if I do see one? I have a 6 lb. dog. Will a scorpion kill it if it stings? Will it kill me if I get stung? Scorpions can enter your home through cracks as small as 1/8. So, it is important to seal all entries, including where pipes and wires enter the home. Seal around pipes beneath sinks. Make sure doors and windows properly close and there are no gaps around them. Scorpions feed on insects. They are nocturnal, coming out at night to feed. Reducing light around the outside of your home at night will attract fewer insects and scorpions. A regular perimeter residual insecticide on foundation of home and on soil along foundation will tend to keep most insects and their predators at bay. A residual insecticide (bug spray) can be used on baseboards to control insects or spiders indoors. There are also scorpion traps available. Contact your local Dept. of Agriculture Extension Agent for recommended chemical controls in your area. Declutter the landscape to eliminate areas that may attract insects and scorpions. Remove unnecessary rocks. Store firewood off the ground. Consider switching to gravel rather than wood mulch. Eliminate standings water or damp areas around the home. Keep basement dry with dehumidifier. Make sure crawl space is dry and all excess water is carried well away from the home. Scorpions do bite dogs. Stings of scorpions cause local reaction and at times a severe illness and even death depending on species. The bites heal slowly. http://ag.arizona.edu/urbanipm/scorpions/scorpions.html You can prevent the scorpions from climbing with scorpion safe bowls. Scorpions cant climb glass so these are the only way to prevent them from crawling on furniture beds cribs You are responding to a dated post. Your post is not supported by scientific evidence, although it sounds plausible. The major issue is exclusion of the scorpions from the home, not placement of 'scorpion safe bowls.'








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